[ARCHIVED] SCP Merchandise

Summary:

Someone is hoping to actually do it.

SCP Merchandise

Kain Pathos Crow 03 Aug 2012 22:38

Well guys, I got this mail today from Moley:

Hello I’m writing this to you as you hold either a position of Moderator or Admin on the SCP Wiki and I’m looking to explain my position to you in regards to the recent talk you may have seen about creating merchandise based on the SCP Foundation wiki.
For clarity I am going to paste in from the Logs of admin chat which Maddy has from when EchoFourDelta muted the channel for me to fully explain myself:

1. <Moley> I have my own business Mole Hill Designs and a couple of friends of mine asked if I'd be interested in joining them in a joint business venture which would be selling traditional games and various geek items in the UK and EU convention scene, after some malarky there are now 6 of us, John, Dave, Dave, Dan, Drew and me if you are curious about names, and we're in the final stages of sorting out
2. <Moley> a webstore and establishing ourselves as a limited partnership
3. <Moley> the topic of stock and items we could sell was discussed at our last meeting, Tuesday the 31st of July, and with Dave, Drew and John having read the site ever since a friend of mine, Robin, introduced us all to in about 36 hours before I joined, so around 1220 days ago by my join date, the idea of producing SCP Foundation Merch came up due to it being part of the CC Licence
4. <Moley> so I mentioned the previous faggotry to the idea but offered that I would ask the SS and Admins if there was the possibilty of the site's blessing if x% of profits went back to the site to cover hosting costs and other stuff that only money can buy to try and defray this, Dave and John are of the opinion that even if there is no blessing it should go ahead but I've argued them to wait for an
5. <Moley> answer
6. <Moley> I saw the new thread on O5 covering exactly this and thought I'd chime in, we have a store in development, the distrobution and manufacturing links in place already through my business, we understand the tone and themes of the site and I've been a member, while not active due to personal things, for around 3 1/3 years so I'd hope that the site knows and trusts me not to be a complete cock about
7. <Moley> it
8. <Moley> I think that's about it to be honest, it allows the site to avoid risk and the bollockache of setting up and running things, allows me to make some money and gives the site a revenue stream they at least have some control over in regards to what gets used

The original pastebin can be found here:

Former Pastebin Link

<Moley> I have my own business Mole Hill Designs and a couple of friends of mine asked if I'd be interested in joining them in a joint business venture which would be selling traditional games and various geek items in the UK and EU convention scene, after some malarky there are now 6 of us, John, Dave, Dave, Dan, Drew and me if you are curious about names, and we're in the final stages of sorting out
<Moley> a webstore and establishing ourselves as a limited partnership
<Moley> the topic of stock and items we could sell was discussed at our last meeting, Tuesday the 31st of July, and with Dave, Drew and John having read the site ever since a friend of mine, Robin, introduced us all to in about 36 hours before I joined, so around 1220 days ago by my join date, the idea of producing SCP Foundation Merch came up due to it being part of the CC Licence
<Moley> so I mentioned the previous faggotry to the idea but offered that I would ask the SS and Admins if there was the possibilty of the site's blessing if x% of profits went back to the site to cover hosting costs and other stuff that only money can buy to try and defray this, Dave and John are of the opinion that even if there is no blessing it should go ahead but I've argued them to wait for an
<Moley> answer
<Moley> I saw the new thread on O5 covering exactly this and thought I'd chime in, we have a store in development, the distrobution and manufacturing links in place already through my business, we understand the tone and themes of the site and I've been a member, while not active due to personal things, for around 3 1/3 years so I'd hope that the site knows and trusts me not to be a complete cock about
<Moley> it
<Moley> I think that's about it to be honest, it allows the site to avoid risk and the bollockache of setting up and running things, allows me to make some money and gives the site a revenue stream they at least have some control over in regards to what gets used

This caused the licence for the wiki to suddenly be changed from Commercial to Non-Commercial but due to the complexity of Creative Commons law and the general consensus within admin chat when the conversation finished last night I feel there is still good reason to continue with this.

I have been a member of the foundation for nearly three and a half years as I previously stated and while I have had personal problems which have kept me away from the site I would still like to consider myself an active member of the community and rather than have this matter be forced by a member, or non-member of the site solely for their personal gain I am wanting to produce quality merchandise with the intent of helping the site to grow and rather than this happening at a random time the site can enter into an agreement with a known entity and save the time, hassle and potential dangers of trying to run a shop through the site itself as seen in previous O5 threads.

I will make perfectly clear in this message exactly what I am looking to gain from this and what I can offer the site in return and I would like your help as senior members of the community to do this.

What I am wanting:
To be blunt, to make money, but do so in a way that both the site and the business venture I am part of can benefit in a positive way.
To do this I would like to request the following:

#1: A small advertisement for our company on the front page of the site.

#2: The site’s blessing to be an Authorised/Official creator and dealer in SCP Foundation merchandise.

#3: To discuss and problems that you may have with the arrangement in an open manner which can be logged for future reference.

#4: Possible use of SCPs you have created with your express permission that you waive the non-commercial and derivative works aspects of the CC licence so that the designs created by our company can be protected against infringement.

#5: If you hold strong views against this venture not to attempt to hold it against other users who may wish to see their work commercially produced.

#6: A timely response to this message stating how you feel about the commercialsing of any SCPs you may hold authorship over. Due to the tight deadlines I am working on the next meeting of my company is at 8pm GMT on Tuesday the 7th of August so I would like a reply if possible by then.

While these may seem to be asking a huge amount I am willing to offer what I believe to be a fair offer in return.
What I am willing to offer:

#1: I will not use an SCP without the express permission of the creator or Gears if the creator is not available.

#2: I will liaise with the creators of the original SCP on the merchandise which is being created from their designs within reason. As previously stated business deadlines may make this process more difficult if timely responses are not made.

#3: I will give back to the site 60-75% of the profits made from each SCP Foundation related item sold. The amount will vary by the amount the item costs to produce to cover replacement costs if there are shipping or manufacturing errors. This money will be sent to a named bank account at an agreed upon regular interval to be used how the Admins and Senior Staff see fit.

#4: Upkeep and advertise the good name of the site at events and people I meet in a professional capacity to further the site’s interests and growth.

#5: To state my views openly and concisely and answer any sensible questions I may be asked in an open and logged channel so there can be no doubt as to the outcome of discussions.

If you find this acceptable or wish to discuss any aspect of it please message me back and we can go from there.

To give you some idea of a pipeline which a design will pass through from being given permission to use your works to release:
Step 1: You give permission for your works to be used and they are passed on to my artists to read through and produce preliminary sketches.

Step 2: You will be shown the preliminary works towards a design and the direction we are considering taking the design in for sale.

Step 3: After any alterations or improvements have been made a prototype of the design will be created and shown to the site at large for public opinion which may alter the design in some way.

Step 4: The design will be produced with whatever attribution you are requiring present and you will receive a free copy of the design as a thank you.

Step 5: The design will go on sale on our website and you will be helping the site grow.

Thank you for reading and I look forward to seeing what you think of this and possibly using your SCPs in the future to create products.

-Regards
Peter "Moley" Coleman

Thoughts people?

Last edited on 06 Apr 2013 19:55 by TroyL Show more

Re: SCP Merchandise

AdminBright 04 Aug 2012 05:19

#1: Not a fan of. A link, somewhere, but an ad feels…

#2: Again, kinda enh on trying to be the official/only one.

#3 good.

#4: We could waive them specififcally, right? Just for certain things?

#5: That's not something we can gaurentee.

#6: We'll work on that. We don't want to rush into anything and fuck stuff up.

We will be able to veto stuff AFTER you've made designs? Like 'Oh, no, please don't represent my SCP like that.'

---

Admin, SCP Wiki

Re: SCP Merchandise

Moley 04 Aug 2012 18:04

#1: The ad will suit the tone of the site and be on par with one of the sections or drop down boxes I'm not expecting a 300X60 Ad banner with a conga line of 682, Able, Clef, Bright and 173.

#2: I'd much prefer acknowledgement that we are in some way authorised by the site in return for giving over money essensially, while the CC licence allows anyone to make things hopefully having an official source to buy from will encourage people to buy from a site which helps the foundation rather than Super Kawaii SCP-Chan off Esty or the like.

#3: Glad you agree.

#4: Yup if you only wanted to waive the rights on Bright the monkey but not 963 that would be fine, you own the rights of waiver over both of them so you can choose which you want control over. Obviously some SCPs will have others linked to them so there might be mutliple items that will need waiving so they make sense. You can even waive the rights on the works to only be used in certain ways so you could waive all your rights for a book but not for posters or action figures.

#5: I'd hope people within the moderators and admins could police their own actions in regards to this and the actions of others. Moderators and Admins hold power and if the thought that being banned or harassed because of the actions you want to take with your own works could cause far greater problems than the production of mechandise you have chosen to approve.

#6: All I need is a rough idea of who agrees and who doesn't by Tuesday production of items will take a couple of months at the very least, I'd like to roll out the first lines just before Christmas and that will take time to create prototypes, have approval from the original creators and get the pipeline for quality mechandise up and running.

For the final point that is where section #2 of what I'm willing to give comes in. If I have tried to contact you for 3 months with not even a yes or no I may have to move ahead to create items, things won't be made normally without approval from an author but as I'm running a business I can't spend 6 months being messed about by an author when prototypes cost me money with no return.

Re: SCP Merchandise

RhettSarlin 06 Aug 2012 19:30

#1: A small advertisement for our company on the front page of the site.

If it isnt a banner ad and looks like it fits the site properly, I don't see any good reason why not… so long as this is not expected to be exclusive to you, should we have other businesses desire to do the same. We would/should have some kind of process for determining which businesses we support as official merchandisers.

#2: The site’s blessing to be an Authorised/Official creator and dealer in SCP Foundation merchandise.

"An" authorised/official, agreed. "The" authorised/official, this is to be avoided, and we should never state you as being such. But I feel you already understood this, which is why you phrased it that way. Just giving emphasis to it.

#3: To discuss and problems that you may have with the arrangement in an open manner which can be logged for future reference.

no brainer.

#4: Possible use of SCPs you have created with your express permission that you waive the non-commercial and derivative works aspects of the CC licence so that the designs created by our company can be protected against infringement.

Absolutely. just do remember that it is each and every individual author whose work you are using that you will have to obtain permission from. this is not something senior staff has the legal right to waive for you, even if we were a legal entity.

With this, however…while I agree that you should be able to protect your designs from being copied, I am a bit leery on how broadly that gets interpreted. For example, if we had another retailer who desired to do works based on the same author's work, and they independently came up with a product similar to yours, what would happen?

To use a somewhat silly example, if both you and they created a SCP-914 figure of some sort, and they were quite distinctly different, would you desire to go after them for creating a similar product off of the same original work, by claiming that they were in fact making a derivative of your own product? It would be a fairly easy claim to make. This needs addressing.

#5: If you hold strong views against this venture not to attempt to hold it against other users who may wish to see their work commercially produced.

Definitely agreed. When it comes down to it, with how the license works, it is nobody's business what any author does with their work. Gears wants to have you sell those 914 figures, and TroyL opposes Gears doing anything commercial at all? Tough patooties on Troy in that instance.

#6: A timely response to this message stating how you feel about the commercialsing of any SCPs you may hold authorship over. Due to the tight deadlines I am working on the next meeting of my company is at 8pm GMT on Tuesday the 7th of August so I would like a reply if possible by then.

As others have stated, we can't promise who will respond to what when.

As you stated, obviously with how the license currently works you can do it if you want to without their permission but you wish to at least make the attempt. I wouldn't fault you for it if you did, because you tried.

BUT I would say that it'd be best to stop making a product line if the author eventually did get back to you on it and objected(though I feel you should be able to sell your current inventory off rather than taking a big loss because of this).

Last edited on 06 Aug 2012 19:32 by RhettSarlin Show more

Re: SCP Merchandise

thedeadlymoose 05 Aug 2012 03:24

My opinion is that we should do nothing regarding this until we interface with the community about it. Yes, staff has all been there for the kicking and screaming behind metaphorically closed doors. Now the arguments need to be made in the open. I don't want the impression that staff are deciding to sign on to a bunch of potentially shady shit.

As stated elsewhere, I'll support the party decision on this, and it seems like one of the best of a lot of really shitty situations that we're not going to be able to avoid. Considering it seems starkly clear that we're stuck with a commercial license that we never goddamn wanted in the first place and are about to be hit with a shitload of bills.

Re: SCP Merchandise

Photosynthetic 05 Aug 2012 06:12

I am not at all comfortable with being rushed into this. I sympathize with the need for timeliness, but pushing us for a decision on an issue this thorny within 2-3 business days of the initial message is not okay with me. Please let us know when the next acceptable deadline would be.

Now, with the caveat that these are my personal views and that I agree very strongly with Moose on the absolute need to consult the community before deciding, I'll tackle your other requests. In order:

1. If we go through with this, I'd be all for a front-page, even a sidebar, link, possibly with accompanying (implied or explicit) endorsement. I'm less comfortable with banner- or image-type ads, but they're definitely a possibility. Any such thing would have to be kept fairly unobtrusive and rigorously in tune with the site feel.

2. Official, sure, as long as it's not exclusive. If you're working that closely with us, I think an endorsement is only fair — why, it'd practically be a statement of fact.

3. Certainly. It's why I much prefer to have this conversation on 05 Command rather than in PMs.

4. I could definitely give permission for my works to be merchandised. (Not going to lie: the idea of a 628 music box makes me squeak like a little girl.) I'm not sure I can waive the CC license, though: isn't it applied to all derivative works automatically? I'm not sure we could protect your designs from infringement… Then again, IANAL.

5. The reason that I, like Bright, think we can't promise this is the interconnectivity of the site. If we consult with the userbase, talk amongst ourselves, and decide that we can't conscience merchandising of the SCP Foundation generally, then any attempt to merchandise particular parts of it would be violating that community agreement. I'd be sort of forced to object, on behalf of the userbase that we as admins/mods/Staff represent. If a given Tale or some such could be successfully divorced from the SCP mythos, that'd be different, but otherwise… No promises.

6. Addressed above.

Also, I like most of what I see in the creative process as posited above. I would insist, however, that the author retain veto power over these designs. If no author is available, let the power default to Gears or a duly selected delegate from Staff. If you still can't contact anyone, I should prefer that you assume the answer is "no".

Re: SCP Merchandise

Moley 05 Aug 2012 14:43

I know the timeline is shorter than usual for many of you to make a decision on how you feel about this but the idea was put into forward in the chat on Tuesday or Wendsday night and the pms were sent out after the usual suspects in chat were happy with the decision. As many people have stated no one person can make a decision about this matter so the provisional deadline for a simple yes/no from you personally is this coming tuesday. This is just so I can give my team something to work with from the off to start generating prototypes.

You personally are welcome to take as long as you wish to decide how or if you would like your works used it just appears I badly communicated this fact in my PM and I appologise.

In regards to #4 I have my lawyer looking into this as we speak but as the works I will be selling will be derivative works of the original I can change or waive parts of the CC licence to give my company at least nominal protection from knockoffs.

In regards to your last point giving permanent veto rights over the designs means that if someone gets the arsehole with me, not an impossible thing to imagine, they can veto a design which may already be successful and thus harm the site due to personal greivance and leave me with stock I cannot morally sell.

Re: SCP Merchandise

Dr Gears 05 Aug 2012 13:49

…We need to deal with this.

This is going to happen, one way or another. We need to find out some way to deal with this issue, because it keeps coming up. People want SCP related goodies, and they are going to get them one way or another. Is there some way to create a "corporate entity" to create merchandise? That way it's not all in one person's hands? Or maybe some system by which things with just a SCP logo return profits to the site, and if an individual SCP item is used, the creator gets some kind of percentage? Or just trail it all back to the site.

I just feel this really needs to be addressed. Money makes everything sticky, and rather fast, but this is going to happen if we want it or not. i'd like to try and direct it a bit, maybe defray the server/site costs for the site move, who knows. And, yes, i'll admit it, i wouldn't like getting a small bit of cash, now and then. Ideally, I'd be getting paid to write, and not just have to wedge it in my spare time, but that's a whole other thing.

Anyway, while this may not be the best option, we do need to realistically look at how we're going to deal with this.

Re: SCP Merchandise

Moley 05 Aug 2012 14:53

I had hoped to remove most of the headaches in this process from the foundations, and by extension your, hands by using the resources and skills I already have at my disposal to manage the issue of creating, marketing, selling and distrobuting the merchandise and then the only issue the foundation would have to deal with would be how the money they recieve would be used from then on.

I've repeatedly stated I'd like no part in that process but I imagine the money could go to pay authors for their work, pay hosting costs, pay legal fees to ensure the foundation is correctly set up and ran as an independent entity and whatever else you see fit to do with it.

I know many people are uncomfterble with it all being in my hands so to speak but it is the only realistic way, considering timezones, personal issues, breaks from the site, people not being in chat when I am and the general cat-herdiness of getting the user base to agree, and more importantly act on, anything in a timely manner. If I am doing this as a genuine business venture like I hope it is in my best interests 100% to ensure that products are top quality, available at all times and shipped the moment they are paid for which may not be top priority for someone who is doing it on a semi volunteer basis and may have other things, such as a sick spouse/child, to deal with.

This may not be 100% the best way that this could have possibly happened true but from what I can see it is realistically the only way the site can benifit in the timescale before project foundation goes ahead and server costs become a very real issue.

Re: SCP Merchandise

DrEverettMann 05 Aug 2012 16:32

Well, here it is, Moley. Personally, I generally trust and like you. I think you're going to do your best not to screw us over. That being said, before we can agree to anything, I feel that we need to talk to a lawyer (either Spike, if he feels this is sufficiently within his area of expertise, or another lawyer). Partly to make sure we understand what we're getting into when we sign on with this, partly to figure out how to handle the money. Right now, we don't have a corporation to deal with the money, and we need one. We need to get that set up, we need to figure out how to make it work, and do so in a fair manner.

Ideally, a part of the money would go to the author, a part to the site, and a part to the merchandising company (i.e. Moley and company), but we need to figure out how much goes where. The latter bit will be determined more by necessity, but the first two parts are mutable.

I'd do it myself, but I'm currently in Afghanistan. Lots of terrorists, camel spiders, and dust storms, not a lot of lawyers (so, really, it breaks even). I believe Clef and Troy are currently working on these steps now, but I don't think we can enter into any agreement until we've done so.

I'm putting myself down as a provisional yes, provided the concerns for #4 are dealt with. For the veto, it should be run by the writer prior to going so far as production of stock, so ideally, you should be good to go by the time you have the merchandise to sell. I agree that vetoing it afterwards would be unfair to you and your partners.

Also, what's the stance on exclusivity? We can't keep other people from turning out SCP merchandise, and there may be ideas out there we might also wish to pursue. As well, you and your partners operate in the UK. How available would your products be to people in the US, where the majority of our fanbase is? We may want to have a US-based merchandise shop as well. Would that be a problem for you?

Re: SCP Merchandise

AdminBright 05 Aug 2012 21:38

Ayup.

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Admin, SCP Wiki

Re: SCP Merchandise

Kain Pathos Crow 05 Aug 2012 20:28

Personally, I support this.

Anything I'd like to say has pretty much already been said, with the exception that I also think we should get to work on a ToS for the new site, one that's airtight, and has a non commercial license with explicitly stated consent.

Re: SCP Merchandise

thedeadlymoose 05 Aug 2012 21:50

Anything I'd like to say has pretty much already been said, with the exception that I also think we should get to work on a ToS for the new site, one that's airtight, and has a non commercial license with explicitly stated consent.

Small note here: Pretty sure we basically can't do this, because our works will be derivative works off stuff under the old license, and the old license requires that we keep ShareAlike and Commercial for child works. But IANAL, just relaying the conclusion we've tentatively come to. (Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, even if it's in a different thread - don't wanna derail this one.)

Re: SCP Merchandise

Kain Pathos Crow 05 Aug 2012 23:53

Actually, if we take everything off this site, and reupload it under the new CC by the original authors, then it would work here.

Technically, we can also get legal ownership of the orphaned articles, but I'm not sure if that's viable outside of the UK.

Re: SCP Merchandise

RhettSarlin 06 Aug 2012 19:12

we can change the license, yes. but it would have to be posted by those authors, not by us. that's sorta what you said, but want it to be clear in case it wasnt. IANAL either, but that one is pretty clear in reading through things.

the original copyright holder can change the license theyre choosing to have their work distributed under, and any future derivatives will have to abide by it. but anyone else posting the work would, by definition, BE posting a derivative, and therefore they would be bound by all the conditions of the CC license, meaning they would have to continue offering it under the same license, and would not be able to waive any portion of it.

the orphaned articles thing is one of the biggest "talk to a lawyer" things in all this. we have to know if we CAN take them over.

Re: SCP Merchandise

RhettSarlin 06 Aug 2012 19:38

One possible problem:

What do we do with works that are based so much on another person's work that they would qualify as derivatives? A derivative cannot change the license at all. I have heard the term "Fair Use" tossed about a bit, and I agree it probably applies to things like the name of the site and the format and such.

But if a tale is written about a specific SCP by another author, is it not a derivative work? In that circumstance, the author of the work would have to maintain the original CC, and even the original author couldn't waive it for them because that's what the person wrote it under, if I understand correctly.

Basically I don't think that there's many SCP's that would fall under this, but I think that if you want to protect yourself from people copying your designs you'll do best to avoid making materials based on Tales.

Re: SCP Merchandise

Sophia Light 06 Aug 2012 23:49

I'm alright with this as it is, I think- from what I'm aware, people could be selling SCP stuff already anyways, and the site will be making some money off of it.

Couple questions for things I may have missed, and/or more informed staff:

• If this deadline is inflexible, how possible would it be for us to work out a system for author compensation later? I personally would be alright with or without personal compensation, but I understand that other people will have reasons for being more interested in this. (Also: in the chat, Moley mentioned a site cut of… 30-40 or 60-70%? What was that number and is that a sure thing?)
• Also, do we have a place for money to go? Last time we had a fundraiser, did it go into a personal account which was then used or into its own thing somehow?

Re: SCP Merchandise

Moley 07 Aug 2012 04:59

Appologies for delays in replies to this thread, I've got an event this coming weekend and I'm killingmyself to get things done for it, replies will be posted tomorrow before my company meeting assuming I don't chop anything off with my jigsaw.