Max Landis

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Max Landis

Doctor Cimmerian 26 Dec 2017 10:37

On December 22nd this tweet happened. It came up in a discussion in staff chat and most of us agreed that for the moment it wasn't really something we could act on immediately, but that we'd keep an eye on the situation.

Today I went ahead and did a bit of digging. This is still sort of in the back pages of entertainment news right now but there's a number of confirming or related tweets to read.

https://twitter.com/UnburntWitch/status/944367597339865090

https://twitter.com/vornietom/status/943013593661849600

https://twitter.com/MollyMcIsaac/status/944676235950440448

https://twitter.com/AaronFlux/status/944684533827346432

https://twitter.com/_anthonyburch/status/944296367459065857

https://twitter.com/aubreysitterson/status/944384563534487553

Also of import is this tweet from Anna Akana from back in October which any reasonable person would conclude is related to the tweet from the 22nd (for anyone who is unfamiliar with the principals here: Max Landis is the son of famous Hollywood director John Landis).

That's the information I have in front of me now. Just to be clear, Max Landis is a member of our wiki. We need to decide (and publicly, I think, so there's a record) if behavior like this outside of the wiki is actionable on the wiki itself, and if so to what level. That's this discussion.

Discipline and Harassment teams should weigh in here. Since I'm starting this off: Jr. Staff should feel free to participate and non-staff users who wish to have their voices heard should privately message me or another member of staff with their point of view so it can be posted.

I'm aware we're still in the middle of the holidays, but with the glacial pace at which we make such decisions, I felt it was best to start this as soon as we had enough information to start it.

Last edited on 26 Dec 2017 10:53 by Doctor Cimmerian Show more

Re: Max Landis

Decibelles 26 Dec 2017 10:44

As far as I know, this didn't go through admin permission to be posted, which I understood to be the case, given two admins in chat specifically said as of yesterday to hold off a bit. I assumed this to mean they had plans on how to approach this on 05. Recklessly posting something without anyone (as far as I know) looking at it shouldn't be common, especially with an issue like this.

Last edited on 26 Dec 2017 10:45 by Decibelles Show more

Re: Max Landis

Doctor Cimmerian 26 Dec 2017 10:52

If administration wanted us to wait (the last I'd heard we were merely "waiting for more information" not "waiting for approval before talking about it"), I was unaware of that fact.

This thread begins the conversation with the available information and ensures this doesn't get missed. Whatever actions end up taken will be decided on by relevant staff, but the rest of us and the community ought to discuss it (and not just in staff chat) at least. As moderator, I feel it's well within my purview to begin a conversation on a topic like this outside of specifically being told not to by an admin.

Even if I'm wrong there, it's up. If admins want to talk to me about pushing this issue they can.

Re: Max Landis

Decibelles 26 Dec 2017 10:55

On policy discussions, that's fine, but this is about someone who is a harasser and abuser. If this was localized on-site, or a different user did this and it was localized on-site, and someone posted it on 05, I'd react the same way because with these situations, you really want to make sure you don't fuck up how we're handling it. I'm incredibly conscientious of how anything to do with abuse and harassment (even if it's not on our site) has to be done.

Re: Max Landis

Doctor Cimmerian 26 Dec 2017 10:58

Quoting from my original post:

We need to decide (and publicly, I think, so there's a record) if behavior like this outside of the wiki is actionable on the wiki itself, and if so to what level.

We are discussing a policy issue. The specific circumstances are without precedent. And very public already.

Last edited on 26 Dec 2017 13:01 by Doctor Cimmerian Show more

Re: Max Landis

Dexanote 26 Dec 2017 22:15

Ask next time. You have a keyboard and are in multiple channels with staff and can message members of Disc and Harassment in said channels.

Don't just throw a thread up, mess up the pots and pans, and go 'well it's done now, do something about it'. Disc and Harassment have known since the day the first tweet dropped. We have had a half dozen users a day message us about it. I don't expect you to have known that but a lot of other staff knew and could have told you.

Or you know, bring it up with someone on a team who is relevant, like disc or harassment, since you're not on those teams to my knowledge (which is probably why you didn't know that we were preparing ourselves properly). Yeah you're a mod but disc and harassment didn't need help.

Last edited on 26 Dec 2017 22:15 by Dexanote Show more

Re: Max Landis

Decibelles 26 Dec 2017 10:53

A site/chat ban would be reasonable to me.

He doesn't even use chat. Not as far as I've remembered. A site ban is of course what I agree with, but this would have been something the captain of the Harassment Team could have at least considered before an 05 thread was posted. Now everything has to be done over the forums and the process gets a lot messier. Yeah, we have a thread up faster, but it's messier.

He last used chat three years ago, according to jarvis. uptomyknees is the username.

A removal of his works from the wiki would be the kind of step I would consider but definitely needs more discussion before we did it.

No. We've removed people before for harassment issues without taking down their works. That's just been precedent Harassment Team had settled on. The only reason why to remove his SCP is because the SCP was involved in harassing someone. Then that discussion can happen. This shouldn't even be a question. (Even if I want him and his trace removed from this site.) Furthermore, since this was all behavior off-site, the SCP doesn't even come into play (AFAIK).

If staff wants to make it policy to remove all the written work on this site of people banned for harassment, that has to be its own separate thread, separate from this discussion, because that's a whole other and complex issue. It's not as simple as just ruling this here. Harassment Team would have to go back through previous number of authors banned for harassment, and I'd also just outright feel uncomfortable doing that without asking anyone affected by said harassers if they're fine with it retroactively, and that's not a discussion I think people want to have. So no.

I don't know that we've ever done that before for behavior.

No, we haven't.

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Anyway, Max Landis should be permabanned from this site. That's what I think of this.

Last edited on 26 Dec 2017 10:57 by Decibelles Show more

Re: Max Landis

Doctor Cimmerian 26 Dec 2017 10:53

My own thoughts:

This looks like enough information to act as a confirmation of this behavior offsite. Some of you may know from discussion in Staff Chat that I've long held that offsite behavior should generally not be actionable except in severe cases. This is behavior that I consider severe enough that action should at least be considered.

Which action should be taken I am still mulling over. A site/chat ban would be reasonable to me. A removal of his works from the wiki would be the kind of step I would consider but definitely needs more discussion before we did it. I don't know that we've ever done that before for behavior.

Edit: Added to the above: I am not fully comfortable with the idea of removing someone's works from the wiki (it's merely mentioned because it was brought up in chat discussions when this initially came up). I'd have to see a fairly convincing argument to change my mind on that. However we need to be very sure we do not promote that work officially offsite if the decision is made to ban.

Last edited on 26 Dec 2017 11:07 by Doctor Cimmerian Show more

Re: Max Landis

LilyFlower 26 Dec 2017 12:42

I don't think we should ever remove somebody's works from the site unless the work is either eligible for deletion or involved in harassment itself. However, I feel we should most certainly permaban anyone who exhibits this sort of off-site behaviour.

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~🌸~Flower Power~🌸~

Re: Max Landis

DrMagnus 26 Dec 2017 15:32

My opinion on this has always been that grossly inappropriate behavior offsite should invalidate your membership on-site.

Your past works are not subject to deletion just because you're a terrible human being, but we don't need to let you in the club so to speak.

Hell. If it came to light that I was raising Zebra to fight each other with machetes tied to their foreheads, and I call them "unicorn fights", I'd expect you to revoke my membership.

Note, I do not do this, but I do admit it sounds metal A.F.

Re: Max Landis

RJB_R 26 Dec 2017 17:52

We shouldn't remove someone's work unless it's part of some insideous harassment plot. If we didn't remove wilt's stuff we shouldn't remove this.

I think he should be permanent banned.

Cimm, as someone who's had a sometimes spotty past in doing stuff without consulting others or following proper procedure, this really should have gone through the harassment team or administration, the latter will probably have to discuss this further with you at some point in the not too distant future.

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Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!

Re: Max Landis

(account deleted) 26 Dec 2017 19:35

We should never remove someone's work because of their actions (unless their actions further immoral/illegal behavior). If a ban is to take place, the removal of someone's work should not take place unless they state it.

In terms of whether or not behavior off the wiki, yes, I do think it should, but it has to be whether or not the individual in question is at risk of spreading toxic behavior to our community. If we have someone who has a significant history of sexual harassment off site, staff should have the right to prevent potential harassment against out users. The same if we have an offsite neo-nazi who makes their connections to their behavior very explicit and out there for everyone to see.¹ Staff have the right to ban that user for potentially spreading toxic behavior.

Footnotes

1. Linking to social media where they parrot that position without hiding it or having their wikidot profile have a white nationalist flag, or linking to a white nationalist site, for instance.

Re: Max Landis

Dexanote 26 Dec 2017 22:09

Cimmerian, next time that a big issue like this comes up, check with an administrator before posting about it. Because the administrators had already wanted to hold off to see what was going to happen. We've been telling users that. It's not widespread public knowledge because we don't need a peanut gallery coming in with clumsy righteousness. But you're in multiple channels with other staff who do know what was going on. Ask.

Now let me be short and sweet. The SCP stays since it wasn't used in harassment. His account will probably be banned.

Re: Max Landis

subtletea 26 Dec 2017 23:37

I believe he should be banned permanently and that his article should /not/ be deleted unless it accrues enough downvotes to fall below the downvote threshold.

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