Today, Athenodora made an official complaint regarding toastedraptor and aceofspades' conduct in 17 a day prior. tl;dr she believed that both toastedraptor and aceofspade were pretty clearly arguing in bad faith for a protracted amount of time that led to basically wasting ops' time through generally mischaracterising others' arguments.
2017-11-23 21:46:21] <Athenodora> guysiefolks
[2017-11-23 21:46:24] <Athenodora> any op around
[2017-11-23 21:46:31] <ARD> Yo
[2017-11-23 21:47:11] <ARD> Athenodora: you know if you want an operator you should at least TRY to ping one
[2017-11-23 21:47:23] <Athenodora> meow
[2017-11-23 21:47:38] <Soulless> ?
[2017-11-23 21:48:09] <Athenodora> I'm wondering if I should file a formal complaint re: the toastedraptor chap
[2017-11-23 21:48:30] <Athenodora> and maybe theaceofspade as well
[2017-11-23 21:49:46] <Athenodora> okay so, brief me in here - constitutionally speaking, what's our rules re: complaint about a user's behavior while they're having a dispute with operators on #site17
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[2017-11-23 21:52:41] <dexanote> What do you mean
[2017-11-23 21:54:23] <Athenodora> can a disciplinary case be pursued for things that happened on 17
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[2017-11-23 21:55:55] <Athenodora> wherein a user is having an argument with OPs over policies
[2017-11-23 21:56:10] <ARD> Yeah
[2017-11-23 21:56:26] <ARD> Same reason people can be held in contempt of court
[2017-11-23 21:56:39] <Athenodora> or is that protected under "well, we should allow people to freely expressing their dissent or displeasure with current policies and staff procedures"
[2017-11-23 21:56:41] <Athenodora> ok
[2017-11-23 21:56:47] <ARD> If you’re gonna be an extra big prick when talking to us we’re perfectly within our rights to smack you down
[2017-11-23 21:57:03] <ARD> Saying “I dislike this act” is a far cry from “I think you’re a jackass”
[2017-11-23 21:57:05] <Athenodora> okay
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[2017-11-23 21:58:55] <Athenodora> I'm filing this as a normal chat user - for this matter let's ignore my status as a chat operator
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[2017-11-23 22:00:23] <Athenodora> but, basically - I am formally filing a complaint about toastedraptor and theaceofspade
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[2017-11-23 22:03:31] <Athenodora> that their behaviours during the argument on 17 made me feel suspicious that at least one of them might have been arguing in bad faith; in any case it was clear that their argumentation consists of a lot of ignoring or misrepresenting the points other people made to them
[2017-11-23 22:04:11] <Athenodora> which led to a conversation being dragged out long after their actual inquiries have actually been addressed
[2017-11-23 22:04:53] <ARD> Cool
[2017-11-23 22:04:59] <ARD> I’m on my phone atm
[2017-11-23 22:05:12] <ARD> Tuomey, Soulless can either of you log this complaint?
[2017-11-23 22:05:51] <Athenodora> so, brief digression for context: I did have a fair bit of experience of being bullied during my school years, which, quite largely stemmed from me coming across as "weird" and "dull-witted" and "slow of mind" and so forth
[2017-11-23 22:06:32] <Athenodora> so I do have some fair amount of personal aversion to seeing slurs like "retard" being tossed around
[2017-11-23 22:08:21] <ARD> That’s valid
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[2017-11-23 22:09:19] <Athenodora> now, whilst I never had the opportunity to voice that personal distress during the 17 conversation, both toastedraptor and theaceofspade had had it communicated to them, quite clearly, that we have a number of chat users who find slurs like that distressing
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[2017-11-23 22:14:13] <Athenodora> they had also been briefed over what slurs are and what kind of words they should or shouldn't be using in Chat, and they have been explained to them that as of that point there had been no disciplinary case against either of them - what toastedraptor received was a warning, as had been clearly explained to them by staffs afterwards and as they should've
[2017-11-23 22:14:25] <Athenodora> known in the first place if they'd actually read the Chat Guide
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[2017-11-23 22:17:02] <Athenodora> but afterwards, I do believe - and we can double-check the log for this - they still persisted with characterising the conversation as one about disciplinary rulings. This, to me, looks like it's solely done so they could claim that they were unfairly disciplined against
[2017-11-23 22:17:22] <Athenodora> even though, again, *there was no disciplinary measure in the first place*
[2017-11-23 22:19:02] <Athenodora> and this is not the only part of that conversation wherein they misrepresented - willfully or otherwise - what other people said to them
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[2017-11-23 22:22:44] <Athenodora> as I did mention at the time, theaceofspade, after their original inquires had been addressed, made what looked very much to me like a fallacious slippery slope argument, asking whether our policing of slurs mean that we would not respect other people's personal trauma triggers if they are not widely shared by others
[2017-11-23 22:22:50] <Athenodora> (you can check the exact wordings in the log)
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[2017-11-23 22:26:24] <Athenodora> and I still believe, as I did at the time, that this is a rather extraordinary bit of slippery-slope thinking - asking whether because we have one set of procedures for a specific situation, does that mean we cannot deal with a different situation with vastly different parameters, enough so that there is little similarity with what was being discussed
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[2017-11-23 22:27:21] <Athenodora> this led me to believe that theaceofspade, too, might not have been arguing in good faith
[2017-11-23 22:28:35] <Athenodora> and either way, I would like it to be noted on records that I believe the way theaceofspade and toastedraptor made a lot of fuss near the end of that conversation about a comment Soulless made and how it was "hurtful"
[2017-11-23 22:30:39] <ARD> Athenodora: your complaint will be logged
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[2017-11-23 22:31:38] <Athenodora> I do believe that not only was their objection not justified - the way they conflated 'being told that you seem to lack social skills' and 'being accused that you're "antisocial"' is very much putting-words-in-people's-mouth, whether deliberately done or not
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[2017-11-23 22:33:40] <Athenodora> but also that, given how they were having a lengthy conversation defending their rights to say something that, as had been communicated to them, a lot of people find hurtful (and let's be clear, that was what that conversation was about; it clearly wasn't about policy inquiries, given all their inquiries *had been addressed* long before that point in the
[2017-11-23 22:33:40] <Athenodora> conversation)
[2017-11-23 22:34:16] <Athenodora> I do think them making a fuss about finding something said to them "hurtful" is *staggeringly* hypocritical
[2017-11-23 22:34:45] <Athenodora> don't know if either of them were aware of the hypocrisy, but that's what it is imo
[2017-11-23 22:34:56] <Athenodora> ARD okay, I think I've finished now
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10:56 AM <%Lily> that's why we kicked them, just to say- rather than banning or logging it
10:56 AM <%Lily> Now they know and hopefully it won't happen again
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10:57 AM <theacefospades> i'm here to continue conversation if anybody is interested
10:57 AM <&Soulless> Lux, is this an incorrect method towards figuring out if somehting is generally harmful to the community, that multiple members claim personal harm?
10:57 AM <theacefospades> disclaimer: Ban what you want. I'm not concerned. I just like the philosophy behind it
10:57 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, sure, what would you like to know
10:57 AM <theacefospades> well put it this way
10:57 AM <%Lily> theacefospades: 17 isn't just for chat I more meant general questions and/or complaints
10:57 AM <theacefospades> oh okay
10:57 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, I understand this is may be a new or confusing policy for you, so if you have any qiestions I am willing to field them
10:58 AM <theacefospades> well if it's not appropriate i won't have the conversation here
10:58 AM <theacefospades> nah i'm cool
10:58 AM <&Soulless> If you are uncomfortable with me and would like another operator to answer your confusion, do let me know
10:58 AM <theacefospades> i'm not starting a revolution
10:58 AM <theacefospades> lol woah guys
10:58 AM <%Lily> no feel free to ask questions lol
10:58 AM <&Soulless> I understand you're not trying to, you may just be confused regarding our policies here
10:58 AM <Lux> but yeah tbh i've been in chats where almost every remotely insulting word is basically considered a slur and it was absolute hell so i'm glad this isn't a place like that lmao
10:58 AM <theacefospades> nah i get it
10:58 AM <theacefospades> you ban waht you want to ban
10:58 AM <theacefospades> 100% don't care
10:58 AM <&Soulless> …then… why do you want us to know about your position
10:59 AM <theacefospades> i just like talking about it because honestly *hat of bossyness* "if i ran things i woulnd't ban slurs at all"
10:59 AM <&Soulless> …so you like talking about it, but you don't care?
10:59 AM <theacefospades> i was interested in the conversation, not trying to change anything or make you change something
10:59 AM <&Soulless> We wouldn't be, I just thought you may have been confused as to appropriate conduct in this community
10:59 AM <&Soulless> If you're not confused, what would you like to talk about?
10:59 AM <theacefospades> as i understand
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11:00 AM <theacefospades> appropriate is whatever the mods decide is appropriate. So i'm not going to use the word. Cause it's not my playground and i have an obligation to play by the rules. Philisophically, i'd say I think it's counterproductive to ban specific words if your goal is to curb abuse
11:01 AM <&Soulless> Okay, I understand you're confused about how we form our policies here
11:01 AM <&Soulless> I understand, it is easy to be confused about this issue
11:01 AM <&Soulless> Generally, what we do is we listen to our users
11:01 AM <TomatointheMirror> May I offer my input
11:01 AM <&Soulless> We listen when they have serious concerns about language that has been systematically used to harm them
11:02 AM <TomatointheMirror> Actually, never mind
11:02 AM <theacefospades> I get that. The connection I disagree with is saying that banning the specific word=stops the harm
11:03 AM <&Soulless> These are often personal, emotional harm as a result, and if this happens often enough, we understand that this may be something that excludes people from the community in that they have to deal with people using harmful language in here with no concern for the common harm done
11:03 AM <&Soulless> Well, when the word is strongly asociated with a lifetime of harm, in fact, it does cease it in the community, since no one needs to be reminded of that in here
11:03 AM <%Lily> theacefospades: that's not the point- but the point is, the words being used (even unintentionally) can harm people- so banning it does stop harm
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11:03 AM <%Lily> I, for one, definately get upset if people use homophobic slurs openly, or similar
11:03 AM <&Soulless> I hope this makes more sense
11:04 AM <theacefospades> Why would that not be true of any purely negative word then? The R word as termed, is a technical term first
11:04 AM <%Lily> and I much appreciate places where that's banned-like here!
11:04 AM <theacefospades> in the sense that. I hear it dailly. In a work context
11:04 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades but you're not at work
11:04 AM <&Soulless> You're here ot have fun, with other people who are here to have fun
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11:05 AM <theacefospades> no I'm not. But my question then is, would we have a moral duty to change our terminology somebody who had been harmed in the past joined our force?
11:05 AM <&Soulless> For some people, some guy reminding them of their childhood abuse is unfun, and if this keeps happening to multiple isolated people, would it ruin your fun to not say it freely so others can haave fyn?
11:05 AM <@ProcyonLotor> I mean, I get stuck in traffic when I drive on the highway. Doesn't mean I want to get stuck in traffic in my neighborhood.
11:05 AM <Maxson> theacefospades: it's not a technical term anymore, ,it's actively being phased out
11:05 AM <@ProcyonLotor> We're not trying to solve the problem universally.
11:05 AM <@ProcyonLotor> Just, y'know, here, where it's in our power.
11:05 AM <theacefospades> i'm aware. Just an example by way of metaphor, to say that when used in a context clearly not directed at a person….
11:05 AM <Maxson> theacefospades: you're asking essentially "why are we trying to be nice"
11:05 AM <&Soulless> I don't believe this is a moral issue, only in that we are beholdeden to fostering a community appropriate to the creation and work of people without unnecessary distracts
11:06 AM <theacefospades> no i'm not ha ha.
11:06 AM <@ProcyonLotor> You really kind of are
11:06 AM <Maxson> you are
11:06 AM <&Soulless> We as staff have a responsibility to our users to foster a community where people can work and enjoy themselves without disruption
11:06 AM <theacefospades> i'm asking why systematic harm is defined by specific words rather than pattern of behaivior
11:06 AM <Maxson> "why can't I use these words that people have said en mass that it's harmful"
11:06 AM <@ProcyonLotor> It can be both
11:06 AM <Maxson> those specific words are a pattern of behavior
11:06 AM <@ProcyonLotor> They're not mutually exclusive
11:06 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, well, generally, the word is a label that is used to justify the systematic harm, and cannot be dissociated it from the population who is harmed by it
11:06 AM <Maxson> they hold damaging worth because of patterns of use
11:06 AM <theacefospades> I'd argue that if there is a pattern, the words used are irrelevent. And that if there is no pattern, the words are not harmful
11:07 AM <Maxson> words are used to uphold those patterns
11:07 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, I udnerstand because these are not your experiences you may find it very confusing, but please try to understand sometimes people have upsetting experiences associated with language that you are not exposed to
11:07 AM <Maxson> in this case, as labels
11:07 AM <stormfallen> words can be a sign of a pattern that might not be otherwise as clear
11:07 AM <@ProcyonLotor> That's implying the words are separate from the pattern
11:07 AM <theacefospades> please do not talk down to me
11:07 AM <theacefospades> i'm VERY familiar with slurs directed at my form of existence thank you
11:08 AM <@ProcyonLotor> Then we shouldn't have to explain this???
11:08 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, I apologize if I have done so; I am deducing that you may not be aware of other people's experiences and reactions, and thus am trying to explain that this occurs; I'm aware most people struggle with understanding that their views may not align with the views of others
11:08 AM <Maxson> theacefospades: then why are you asking us why we can't use slurs here?
11:08 AM <&Soulless> Therefore I understand this may be difficult for you, similar to how it has been difficult to others in the past
11:08 AM <&Soulless> If you would like to be the exception I can update my parameters of your treatment
11:08 AM <theacefospades> Because it wasn't used as a slur. The context makes it clear. And in a case where context is clear. I do not agree that the onus is on the speaker to avoid offense
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11:09 AM <Maxson> theacefospades: like, legit question, would you want to hang around us if we used [insert slur used against you] in any coontext?
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11:09 AM <&Soulless> I understand it was not used as a slur, but sometimes that doesn't matter in that it still harms others regardless of such?
11:09 AM <&Soulless> If we recieve concerns from users that the word used in any context is harmful to them, we believe that becomes a slur, because that is what a slur is
11:10 AM <theacefospades> depends on A how much i valued your other actions, and B. whether you were using it against me or against an inatimate object
11:10 AM <&Soulless> A slur is a word that has become so embroiled in the harm associated that it literally cannot be used in a way that is dissociated from its context
11:10 AM <&Soulless> We believe multiple users have informed that this is the case regarding this word
11:10 AM <theacefospades> Fair enough then I suppose
11:10 AM <&Soulless> Therefore in order to foster a proper environment free of unnecessary distraction to our community we have also labeled this a slur
11:11 AM <&Soulless> I understand since this may not have occured to you, you may not be aware of this, especially if you have not met anyone who has been harmed such language
11:11 AM <theacefospades> Maxson: in the end, though. I would care very little. I would not want anybody to have that kind of power over me
11:11 AM <Maxson> theacefospades: I'm glad you can live that way
11:11 AM <Maxson> but not all of us have that ability
11:11 AM <@ProcyonLotor> You're not everyone, everyone is not you, et cetera
11:12 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, is there anything else you are confused about?
11:12 AM <@ProcyonLotor> Like, I //personally don't give a shit if someone calls me a faggot, doesn't mean I think everyone's gotta be okay with it
11:13 AM <theacefospades> I suppose I would argue that if you wanted to pursue broder change, you would be better served working on helping people be impervious to those things, rather than hunting down the people that say the words
11:13 AM <theacefospades> you'll always have hate with you
11:13 AM <%Dora> > helping people be impervious to those things
11:13 AM <Maxson> being hurt by things isn't hate
11:14 AM <@ProcyonLotor> We're not pursuing broader change as chat operators, though. We're keeping our house clean.
11:14 AM <Maxson> and people are not a monolith
11:14 AM <theacefospades> saying them is hate though
11:14 AM <@ProcyonLotor> That's where our duties lay
11:14 AM <theacefospades> maybe so.
11:14 AM <%Dora> and how do you propose to do that, then
11:14 AM <stormfallen> And we're not trained and licensed therepists, that's not our hob
11:14 AM <stormfallen> *job
11:14 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, we generally are not pursuing broader change, I apologize if we have come off that way to you in any way
11:14 AM <%Dora> in what way is it within our power or capacity to "[help] people be impervious to those things"
11:14 AM <theacefospades> Well. Larger contexts are the creation of their smaller communities
11:15 AM <Maxson> saying "don't say this" is also 500000000000000000000 times easier for anyone to do, versus putting in extensive time and effort basically being a therapist to people
11:15 AM <@ProcyonLotor> We used to allow it. I was from those days. And you know what? Our community was a fucking pit.
11:15 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, our concern as staff is a responsibility to our users; our actions are not as a result of any formal morality staff indepdently come up with; I apologize if we have come off as any other way
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11:15 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, individually staff all have their own motivations and individuals, I hope that this comes off clearly to you
11:15 AM <theacefospades> As it should be
11:15 AM <toastedraptor> Hi, I just wanted to have a civil discussion about my kick earlier
11:15 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, If you would like to talk only to staff who believe this is a moral issue, please let me know
11:15 AM <toastedraptor> The kick itself doesn't concern me
11:16 AM <toastedraptor> I take issue with the principles behind the kick
11:16 AM <Maxson> it isn't in our ability as individuals to help everyone else become impervious to harm, and that's not a possible outcome for everyone either
11:16 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, sure
11:16 AM <toastedraptor> My argument is basically this
11:16 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, would you like another operator in case you are uncomfortable talking to me?
11:16 AM <toastedraptor> Nah, you're fine
11:16 AM <toastedraptor> It's not that big of a deal
11:16 AM <toastedraptor> More of a principle debate
11:16 AM <&Soulless> I understand you may be uncomfortable with my use of authority against you
11:16 AM <toastedraptor> My issue is just with the concept behind it
11:16 AM <&Soulless> Therefore please do not hesitate to ask for someone else if you need to
11:17 AM <&Soulless> We are here to recieve your concern in a suitable and comfortable manner
11:17 AM <toastedraptor> It seems really…excessive to kick/ban people for using words that may or may not offend somebody
11:17 AM <toastedraptor> Especially if not used abusively
11:17 AM <@ProcyonLotor> Considering two people called for ops, that's a moot point from the outset
11:17 AM <&Soulless> Okay, I percieve you have a misconception as to how we accomplish our policies
11:17 AM <%Lily> what would you suggest we do instead
11:17 AM <&Soulless> Please allow me to explain
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11:18 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, we do not come up with slurs, we are informed by our community that this language has been used in such a way against them that it is harmful regardless of the intent it is used; this is the definition of a slur
11:18 AM <theacefospades> is that what that was? that explains so much
11:18 AM <toastedraptor> Soulless: So you're saying one person complaining about a word being used against them is sufficient to label it a slur? Again, that strikes me as an overreaction.
11:18 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, I apologize, sometimes my language is hard to understand
11:18 AM <%Dora> toastedraptor "one person"
11:18 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, please allow me to simplyify for you
11:19 AM <theacefospades> toastedraptor: if I may. There seems to be site history of people complaining about it in the past. This isn't the first time. It's been an informal vote of sorts
11:19 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, I would like to make clear the *multiple* *prominent* user*s* have spoken with staff to inform us that *this word is a slur* therefore we are responsible to them as staff to treat it as a slur
11:19 AM <toastedraptor> But that's they key phrase - used against them
11:19 AM <toastedraptor> I didn't use it against anyone
11:20 AM <toastedraptor> It was an adjective
11:20 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, okay, I understand you may not know what a slur is
11:20 AM <toastedraptor> Was it the most tactful adjective? No, and I can admit that
11:20 AM <&Soulless> A slur is a word that has become so enveloped in its context that it cannot be used in a way that isn't uncomfortable to the people who have been previously targeted by this word
11:20 AM <&Soulless> Therefore, there is no context in which the word can be used unharmfully
11:21 AM <&Soulless> This is the definition of a slur as I understand it
11:21 AM <theacefospades> They don't care toastedraptor and while i agree with you that it's a little naning. It's consistent. Enough peopel have said "we don't want to hear the word in any context" so they don't let peopel say it
11:22 AM <theacefospades> i realize I may be overstepping here….my apologies if i shouldn't be talking to anybody but staff here
11:22 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, do you have other issues I can help clarify for you? I understand this may be very confusing, because it is couched on other people's experiences that are not yourself, and I understand that understanding others have other experiences is difficult for some people
11:22 AM <%Dora> theacefospades we've got this
11:22 AM <toastedraptor> Again, it just strikes me as an overreaching effort to try to not offend people.
11:23 AM <toastedraptor> Had the response been "yo, can you try not use that word?" instead of two people immediately calling chat police, I might not be as irritating about this
11:23 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, what is overreaching if others inform us that it is a slur, a slur being defined as a language that /cannot/ be used harmlessly?
11:23 AM <%Dora> okay
11:23 AM <toastedraptor> See my previous message
11:23 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, generally people are told not to tell you not to do things
11:23 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, because thjey have no authority to stop you
11:23 AM <toastedraptor> I'm not saying they needed to tell me not to use the word
11:23 AM <toastedraptor> A simple request would have been fine
11:23 AM <%Dora> Soulless formal request that I may chime in for the next 5 seconds or so?
11:23 AM <toastedraptor> Yeah, I get that Soulless
11:23 AM <&Soulless> Dora, sure
11:24 AM <toastedraptor> I'm just saying they basically dialed 911 rather than just act civil
11:24 AM <toastedraptor> *acted
11:24 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, we generally encourgae our users, when they feel another user is out of line, is to inform us and let us decide if you are being harmful
11:24 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, in this case I determined that you were and kicked you in order to alert you to this behav ior
11:24 AM <%Dora> toastedraptor first, to get this minor procedural point out of the way first - I see no problem with users requesting Chat Operator input in times of dispute
11:24 AM <%Lily> also, can I point out, the kick was us saying "yo don't say this"
11:24 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, otherwise any random user may start some ugly fight with you and it is unpleasant for everyone, and a headache for the operators
11:25 AM <toastedraptor> That's a fair argument, massive debates in 19 aren't pleasant
11:26 AM <%Dora> toastedraptor I mean, would you rather some random users to have the authority to, say, tell a newbie "you should/shouldn't do this, it's a rule here?"
11:26 AM <@ProcyonLotor> And ultimately, we feel the value to allowing the word in 19 is null compared to those drawbacks
11:26 AM <toastedraptor> If they could refer me to a specific, written rule outlawing the word, then I wouldn't have an issue with it Dora
11:26 AM <toastedraptor> I had no way of knowing the word was a slur beforehand
11:26 AM <toastedraptor> At least, in the opinion of staff
11:26 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, well, that is we you were kicked to inform you that it is a slur
11:26 AM <%Dora> toastedraptor okay, have you been faced with a disciplinary measure over this?
11:27 AM <toastedraptor> Not besides the kick, no
11:27 AM <%Dora> a kick is not a disciplinary measure
11:27 AM <%Dora> as quite clearly defined in our Chat Guide
11:27 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, we understnad that, as you come from your own experiences, you may not understand what is and isn't appropriate behavior
11:27 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, therefore this is a way to get your attention and inform you what is appropriate
11:28 AM <toastedraptor> How am I supposed to know what is and isn't a slur in the opinion of staff?
11:28 AM <toastedraptor> There could be a word I use in my vocabulary that you see as a slur
11:28 AM <toastedraptor> Should I expect to get randomly kicked for that?
11:28 AM <%Dora> it's classified as a "Warning"
11:28 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, well yes, you may not be aware, thus a kick is a way for you to become aware
11:28 AM <toastedraptor> Is there a way for me to know what you guys consider unacceptable without being kicked?
11:28 AM <toastedraptor> My objective isn't to offend either
11:28 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, they are generally not heavily held against you, because as you said, you may simple be ignorant to what is harmful language
11:28 AM <toastedraptor> I use plenty of words that may or may not be seen as offensive
11:29 AM <Maxson> toastedraptor: if you get kicked for using words that you legitimtely don't knkow to be slurs, you woon't get writte up or anything
11:29 AM — %Dora also, minor operational point, but you're expected to have a functional familiarity with the Chat Guide before participating in our chat rooms
11:29 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, please be assured we allow and accpet ignorance as a reason why you may behave inappropriately, and thus a kick is as far as they will go
11:29 AM <%Dora> what Maxson said
11:29 AM <%Dora> it's not a /disciplinary/ measure
11:30 AM <toastedraptor> Okay, let me clarify something.
11:30 AM <Maxson> kicks function as a "method of delivering warnings that don't run the risk of being missed
11:30 AM <toastedraptor> There are plenty of words in my daily vocabulary that may or may not be seen by other people as offensive. I am more than happy to admit that I am generally somewhat crass. That being said, it will quickly become annoying if I'm kicked and OPs are called every time somebody has an issue with a word I've used.
11:30 AM <toastedraptor> That's all I'm trying to say. If you can give me a list, we'll be gucci.
11:31 AM <Maxson> if the kick was disciplinary, you'd be given a full warning and probably a ban
11:31 AM <toastedraptor> But it just seems like I'm gonna get kicked for talking how I talk.
11:31 AM <Lux> uhh usually anything considered more or equally offensive to the r slur is bad everything else is fine
11:31 AM <toastedraptor> But that's highly subjective, is my point.
11:31 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, I mean, you could only be kicked for using slurs maybe a few times
11:31 AM <@ProcyonLotor> I mean, it's a pretty short list
11:31 AM <@ARD> toastedraptor: if 4chan encourages its use then avoid it
11:31 AM <&Soulless> There aren't that many slurs
11:32 AM <&Soulless> So you will quickly learn
11:32 AM <&Soulless> :)
11:32 AM <Lux> n slur f slur r slur uhh maybe a couple others i can't remember atm
11:32 AM <Lux> those are the common ones
11:32 AM <%Lily> Lux, let's not
11:32 AM <&Soulless> I think there's not even like 5 words we don't allow
11:32 AM <&Soulless> Maybe 6
11:32 AM <Maxson> toastedraptor: you're not guaranteed a kick just because you say a slur either, if someone says "hey doon't say that" just add it to your mental list of things not to say
11:32 AM <LadyKatie> There is a list on wikipedia that may help
11:32 AM <&Soulless> Oh is there
11:32 AM <@ProcyonLotor> Any racial slur, "faggot", and "retard"
11:33 AM <&Soulless> Tha's great
11:33 AM <@ARD> yeah that about covers it
11:33 AM <@ProcyonLotor> There you go. Subjectivity gone.
11:33 AM <toastedraptor> Fair enough
11:33 AM <toastedraptor> I appreciate the clarity
11:33 AM <%Lily> also anything transphobic, helicopter jokes don't fly here (lol geddit)
11:33 AM <&Soulless> lol
11:33 AM <stormfallen> ouch
11:33 AM <Maxson> Lily: lmao
11:33 AM <theacefospades> what about religious epitaphs?
11:34 AM <Lux> helicopter jokes will be shot down
11:34 AM <toastedraptor> There are so many words that could potentially be seen as slurs that we've been here all day.
11:34 AM <@ARD> Jesus Christ
11:34 AM <toastedraptor> If I'm to believe ProcyonLotor, anything else is fine
11:34 AM <toastedraptor> Yes?
11:34 AM <%Dora> I mean, if your vocabulary presents a consistent and insurmountable roadblock against communicating with a group of people
11:34 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, generally proletizing a religion in chat is disruptive
11:34 AM <Lux> uhh would avoid religious ones other than jesus christ
11:34 AM <toastedraptor> Not saying I'm intentionally going to use sketchy words
11:34 AM <theacefospades> not what i asked
11:34 AM <@ProcyonLotor> Didn't I just provide you a pretty damn thorough list?
11:34 AM <%Dora> and if it's truly *consistent* and *insurmountable*
11:34 AM <Lux> jesus christ as an expletive is acceptable
11:34 AM <toastedraptor> ProcyonLotor: Yes that's my point
11:34 AM <%Dora> then, well, what else is there to be said?
11:34 AM <theacefospades> not expletive, epitaph
11:34 AM <toastedraptor> No subjectivity
11:34 AM <@ARD> there are not that many words we can use as slurs. If it has racial connotations, derogates LGBT people, or is 'retard', then avoid it
11:34 AM <%Dora> no communication can be achieved
11:34 AM <%Lazar> I think anything pejorative in regards to race, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion is probably frowned upon.
11:35 AM <@ARD> "shit, dick, fuck" are fine
11:35 AM <%Dora> .def epitaph
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11:35 AM <%jarvis> dora: epitaph - noun: 1. An inscription on a gravestone in memory of the deceased. 2. A poem or other short text written in memory of a deceased person.
11:35 AM <@ProcyonLotor> In general, a guiding light is "if you can't say it without being a dick, don't say it"
11:35 AM <%Tuomey> theacefospades: if it's a bad word for someone based on their belief, don't use it
11:35 AM <%Dora> wait
11:35 AM <%Lazar> Epithet is the word you're looking for
11:35 AM <%Tuomey> if you're just saying "oh god what the fuck"
11:35 AM <%Tuomey> that's fine
11:35 AM <@ProcyonLotor> And yeah, pretty sure that's not the word you're looking for
11:35 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, oh, and if you're confused as to why something is a slur, please let us know and we will be happy to enlighten you
11:35 AM <theacefospades> sorry
11:35 AM <theacefospades> dyslex as i've said
11:35 AM <theacefospades> i'm thinking more along the lines of
11:36 AM <theacefospades> heritic
11:36 AM <theacefospades> fool
11:36 AM <theacefospades> infidel
11:36 AM <theacefospades> those seem a lot more destructive to me
11:36 AM <@ProcyonLotor> I mean, we're not the Church
11:36 AM <@ProcyonLotor> Or any church
11:36 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, generally we have not recieved reports from promiment users that that language has been used to systematically abuse or harm them
11:36 AM <@ProcyonLotor> So… not really??????????
11:36 AM <%Lazar> I don't think any of those in particular are unacceptable because they're generalized
11:37 AM <&Dexanote> Heretic and infidel aren't slurs
11:37 AM — &Dexanote shakes his head
11:37 AM <toastedraptor> So you're saying "Jesus fucking Christ" would be acceptable, for instance?
11:37 AM <@ProcyonLotor> Only way I ever see heretic in my day to day life is shitty 40k memes
11:37 AM <&Dexanote> Dude.
11:37 AM <&Dexanote> Okay.
11:37 AM <&Dexanote> I'm gonna do this.
11:37 AM <&Dexanote> Is it a racial slur? Bad.
11:37 AM <&Dexanote> Is it a slur against LGBT people? Bad.
11:37 AM <&Dexanote> Does it insult or potentially insult a minority? Bad.
11:37 AM <&Dexanote> That's pretty straightforward.
11:38 AM <toastedraptor> Okay, fair enough
11:38 AM <toastedraptor> Thank you
11:38 AM <&Dexanote> No problem.
11:39 AM <theacefospades> I have another question.
11:39 AM <&Soulless> Go on
11:39 AM subtletea → %t-eats
11:40 AM <%Lazar> I think you have like +5 staff members looking, so we're going to answer the crap out of this question
11:40 AM <theacefospades> suppose I have say…. idk gigantism or something
11:40 AM <theacefospades> and I find the word giant to be personally hurtful
11:40 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, I will also warn that at some point I may direct you to see a psychologist that may be able to adewuately teach you social appropriate behavior
11:40 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, okay, your concern is noted
11:40 AM t-eats → %teats
11:40 AM <theacefospades> Soulless: that was uncalled for
11:40 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, if anyone else has the concern, we will consider it further
11:41 AM <theacefospades> i'm not finished
11:41 AM <theacefospades> supposing that to be the case
11:41 AM <theacefospades> and i'm sustaining real harm
11:41 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, I am under the impression that if you need to ask about x or y, you do not have the appropriate social training in society, and I am not trained to formally teach you how to handle social situations
11:41 AM <theacefospades> why is the onus for my protection dependent on others also sharing what may be a unique situation?
11:42 AM <@ProcyonLotor> Because we can't completely file the edges off social interaction and it's unreasonable to try?
11:42 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, generally, you may talk to a psychologist on how to handle your own emotional harm, we as a community cannot help you
11:42 AM <@ProcyonLotor> So we do the best to find a happy medium that suits our community.
11:42 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, generally a psychologist will be able to teach you what is appropriate social behavior, and also how to handle your emotional sensitivities to your own personal experiences
11:42 AM <Maxson> theacefospades: to be perfectly honest, if you say "please don't say this around me" and other people say "HA NAHHHHHH WE FEEL LIKE DOING IT ANYWAY" it's a reflection of asshole behavior on their part and you shouldn't have to do much beyond say "dont 'say this aroun dme"
11:42 AM <%Tuomey> ^
11:42 AM <%Dora> also, if such a situation arises, a "unique" situation as you say
11:42 AM <%Dora> then we'll moderate it as a "unique" situation
11:43 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, if we believe that it is a systematic issue, we can fully ban it as a slur in the community in general, but since this is just you, we cannot help you, and do not have the training to help you
11:43 AM <%Dora> just because we have procedures on hand to handle situations that are systematic doesn't mean we cannot or will not handle unique situations as well
11:43 AM <Maxson> you have no responsibility beyond asking not for the word to be used around you
11:43 AM <%Dora> this, I daresay, is a situation of false dilemma
11:43 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, you may need to refer to a specialist for appropriate social training, and I apologize for the difficulty of yours, and if you wish to vent to me about how difficult this is for you, my PM is always open
11:44 AM <toastedraptor> I'm sorry, but are you seriously telling this guy to see a psychologist and get social training?
11:44 AM <theacefospades> I….honestly don't know how to respond to that last comment…
11:44 AM <toastedraptor> Yeah.
11:44 AM <toastedraptor> That's ridiculous, sorry.
11:44 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, generally we are not trained to teach others how not to use harmful language
11:44 AM <toastedraptor> …
11:44 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, nor are we trained to teach people how to deal with personal traumas
11:44 AM <theacefospades> hearing a word that people have used to call me names is bad…but being told taht i should seek proffesional help because I disagree with your philosophy is okay?
11:44 AM <toastedraptor> Wow.
11:44 AM <toastedraptor> Yeah, that's…wow.
11:44 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, so I can only direct someone who hasn't been socialized to not harm others, and someone who has personal traumas, to see a psychologist
11:45 AM <theacefospades> So now you're calling me anti-social in a clinical sense?
11:45 AM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, or perhaps a social worker or occupational sociologist
11:45 AM <toastedraptor> No.
11:45 AM <toastedraptor> I'm sorry, but no.
11:45 AM <%Dora> everyone
11:45 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, no, because that is not the definition of anti-social in the clinical sense
11:45 AM <%Dora> may I have the floor for the next few moments
11:45 AM <&Soulless> Sire
11:45 AM <toastedraptor> The last few things you said to theacefospades are just ridiculous.
11:45 AM <%Dora> I'd like to raise a point of concern
11:46 AM <%Dora> theacefospades if I may be straightforwards, there's also the issue that I personally am not wholly convinced that you're arguing from good faith
11:46 AM <@ProcyonLotor> I fully agree.
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11:46 AM <%Dora> and I would like to raise this point forth for discussion here, with other operators
11:46 AM <%Dora> if I may elaborate
11:47 AM <%Dora> 11:42 Dora also, if such a situation arises, a "unique" situation as you say
11:47 AM <%Dora> 11:42 Dora then we'll moderate it as a "unique" situation
11:47 AM <&Soulless> I will step back because I believe this may be a serious concern that a user may have some sort of social learning issue, so I'll duck out and let the other operators decide
11:47 AM <%Dora> 11:43 Dora just because we have procedures on hand to handle situations that are systematic doesn't mean we cannot or will not handle unique situations as well
11:47 AM <Scantron> http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/315/875/bb6.jpg
11:47 AM <%Dora> 11:43 Dora this, I daresay, is a situation of false dilemma
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11:47 AM <Scantron> sorry, thought this was 19
11:47 AM <Scantron> my b
11:48 AM <%Lily> np
11:48 AM <%Dora> as I have stated earlier, I do believe what is described in your "question" above is in fact a false dilemma
11:49 AM ⇐ Maxson quit (~ghostchib@757718FD:87E0357B:AAF05DE5:IP) Ping timeout: 182 seconds
11:49 AM <%Dora> a demonstrably false one
11:50 AM <%Dora> so the further question becomes whether we should believe that you, in good faith, legitimately did not recognise that it is a false dilemma when you brought your "question" up to us
11:50 AM <theacefospades> I was not creating a false dilema. I was asking a question that I thought could be used as a clear metaphor for a similar situation, where somebody was harmed but was not part of "several users" because i wanted to know what the philosophy of rule making extended to in unique situations where something could be clearly understood as offensive and/or harmful
11:51 AM <theacefospades> In other words, would you make a judgement call, in a situation where nobody had before complained, on something that was agreed by staff to be objectively offensive
11:51 AM <toastedraptor> I also think it's pretty insane for somebody to insinuate that a guy asking a fair, legitimate question has a social disability and should see a psychologist.
11:51 AM <theacefospades> i don't feel that such a question is unfair or hostile
11:51 AM <@Cimmerian> Wouldn't the simplier question be "Is there a list of words I can't use"?
11:51 AM <toastedraptor> I don't think we should just breeze past that
11:52 AM <toastedraptor> Borderline offensive, really
11:52 AM <theacefospades> no it wouldn't
11:52 AM <toastedraptor> Since we're on that topic
11:52 AM <theacefospades> because I didn't want a list. I wanted to know how you would go about addding something to the list
11:52 AM <theacefospades> look. Friend countrymen.
11:52 AM <@Cimmerian> toastedraptor: Once ace is done with their staff questions you can file a complaint but we're doing one thing at a time right now.
11:52 AM <%Dora> toastedraptor again, I am disputing whether it's a "fair, legitimate question" in the first place - yes, it could very well have been one
11:53 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, so if I may understand you lied to us about your condition in order to ask us how we would respond to a hypothetical?
11:53 AM Lily → %LilySleep
11:53 AM <theacefospades> ?
11:53 AM <theacefospades> no
11:53 AM <theacefospades> i said "if"
11:53 AM <%Dora> but I can only judge by the evidence at hand, and as I have argued above, I personally am not entirely convinced
11:53 AM <%Dora> that's why I've raised the point here for further discussion
11:53 AM <theacefospades> i said "if i had…idk" i felt that was sufficient to make it clear that the situation was hypothetical
11:53 AM <&Soulless> theacefospades, so you are unable to ask for what you want clearly?
11:54 AM <%Dora> I am, in effect, alleging that we have a situation of reasonable doubt here
11:54 AM <@Cimmerian> theacefospades: Just ask your question, don't spin around the question and expect us to know what you're trying to get to.
11:54 AM <theacefospades> I chose to ask the question in the way I would have asked it in person. I generally try to reason by analogy
11:54 AM <@Cimmerian> And beyond that, your question was answered in the upscroll, so was there anything else?
11:55 AM <toastedraptor> For the record, nothing about the way he worded his question screamed "not out of good faith" to me.
11:55 AM <toastedraptor> Seemed perfectly fair.
11:55 AM <@Cimmerian> toastedraptor: ONce again I must ask you to hold off until we're done with theacefospades.
11:55 AM <theacefospades> well my new question hasn't been. Why it's okay to say that I am mentally deficient because I disagreed or seemed to disagree with something
11:55 AM <@Cimmerian> Oh so we've moved on from your original issue.
11:55 AM <%Dora> 11:41 theacefospades why is the onus for my protection dependent on others also sharing what may be a unique situation?
11:55 AM <Maxson|mobile> theacefospades: that's not what Soulless said ata lol
11:55 AM <@Cimmerian> No one said you are mentally deficient.
11:56 AM <Maxson|mobile> *at all
11:56 AM <%Dora> toastedraptor well, and I do not believe there's anything in the prior conversation that'd support the idea that we demands that "the onus for [one's] protection dependent on others also sharing what may be a unique situation?"
11:56 AM <%Dora> this point, I believe, comes out of nowhere
11:57 AM <%Dora> the entire prior conversation has been about slurs
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11:58 AM <%Dora> nowhere in it, I believe - and we can look up the logs - that us Chat Operators have alleged that we do not recognise that individuals may have their own trauma triggers that are tied to their own personal background and situation
11:59 AM Maxson|mobile → Maxsteering
11:59 AM <Hexi|Gaming> my 0.02$ on that point Dora if i may
11:59 AM <%Dora> so yes, as far as I can see, it appears that something has been presented as representing our viewpoint that originated from nothing that we've said
11:59 AM <%Dora> Hexi|Gaming yes please
12:00 PM <Hexi|Gaming> i have ptsd triggers on a level not many of you could comprehend, in fact chat regularly, and i mean regularly brings up horrific memories that i have suppressed. i do not place ownus on chat members for this. its not their fault.
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12:00 PM <theacefospades> "you may need to refer to a specialist for appropriate social training, and I apologize for the difficulty of yours"
12:01 PM <@Cimmerian> theacefospades: Yes. The prior statement was about proper use of language.
12:01 PM <djkaktus> Is that something somebody said?
12:01 PM <@Cimmerian> which is the crux of your questions here
12:01 PM <theacefospades> Well the initial ones were answered, and then people became hostile about them
12:02 PM <theacefospades> currently i'm trying to figure out why that hostility is warrented
12:02 PM <theacefospades> Soulless: has implied several times that i need/should seek professional help because of my views
12:02 PM <theacefospades> that to me is….odd. In a discussion about offensive language.
12:02 PM <%Dora> I think I've finished expressing my case. I now leave everyone to discuss whether the point I've raised is warranted
12:02 PM <@Cimmerian> Outside of this conversation? Because I read this one and if you're talking about just this conversation you're overstating your case.
12:03 PM <@Cimmerian> And frankly grossly misrepresenting the facts of what has occurred.
12:03 PM <theacefospades> Fine then
12:03 PM <&Soulless> theacefospades, I was under the impression you are not aware of what is a slur, nor are you aware of when others are upset at you
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12:03 PM <theacefospades> I would appreciate it if people did not suggest to me that i seek mental help
12:03 PM <&Soulless> theacefospades, I believe these indicate someone who has not been socially trained, which is fine, I myself have had difficulty with this
12:04 PM <theacefospades> i would also ask that people not imply i have a mental illness, or potential for one
12:04 PM <&Soulless> theacefospades, therefore I suggest this because I am not a professional who is capable of telling you what to do, and what are appropriate responses to basic social interaction
12:04 PM <@Cimmerian> theacefospades: Ah! There's the crux of our misunderstanding I think. You're equating "professional help" with "mental help"
12:04 PM <@Cimmerian> those are not actually the same thing
12:04 PM <&Soulless> theacefospades, I do not believe you are mentally ill for being poorly socialized, merely that I cannot socialize you myself
12:04 PM <theacefospades> i'm stating this as an official "claim" that his is something that profoundly disturbs and insults me.
12:05 PM <&Soulless> theacefospades, plenty of very intelligent, amazing people who have difficulties interacting socially with others
12:05 PM <@ARD> theacefospades: soulless isn't calling you mentally ill or deficient
12:05 PM <theacefospades> and that i would appreciate not being called "poorly socialized"
12:05 PM <@ARD> merely uneducated
12:05 PM <@Cimmerian> Well. We can avoid that in the future then. As of now.
12:05 PM <@Cimmerian> Anything else?
12:05 PM <theacefospades> Then I think i'm done.
12:05 PM <theacefospades> good day
12:05 PM <@Cimmerian> Peace!
12:05 PM <&Soulless> theacefospades, take care and best of luck with everything
12:05 PM ⇐ Prior quit (ciaf.mud.ru|gnihgual#ciaf.mud.ru|gnihgual) Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
12:05 PM <theacefospades> if you can call it that
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12:05 PM <@Cimmerian> toastedraptor: You had a thing, yes?
12:06 PM <@Cimmerian> Or would you consider it handled after the above conversation?
12:06 PM → &dexanote (promoted to admin, opped), ClassyBulbasaur, moklin and %Joreth (halfopped) joined ⇐ &Dexanote and ClassyB quit ↔ theacefospades popped in • Maximum_overdrive → Maxson|mobile, teats → %subtletea
12:32 PM <toastedraptor> So we're just breezing past the fact an OP implied that dude was mentally ill?
12:33 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, there is no mental illness in having trouble or not being educated in how to behave socially
12:33 PM <Maxson|mobile> We established that soulless never said anything about anyone being mentally ill
12:33 PM <&Soulless> I am not a professional who can diagnose mental illness
12:34 PM <&Soulless> I was merely pointing out that the level of deep confusion struck me as someone who needed to be formally, professional educated in social behaviors
12:34 PM <&Soulless> And that I was not a professional for that
12:34 PM <Maxson|mobile> You're confusing soulless's suggestion that someone get help regarding difficulty with SOCIAL interactions and behaviors
12:34 PM <Maxson|mobile> And nothing to do with mental illness
12:34 PM <toastedraptor> Soulless straight up implied that the dude was antisocial, or at the very least had difficulty with social situations.
12:34 PM <toastedraptor> He PMed me stating he was hurt by the comment.
12:35 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, I generally understand that interacting socially with others is quite difficult, and that professional help has been useful to me, so I thought it would help them in turn
12:35 PM <toastedraptor> I do not think that was okay.
12:35 PM <%Dora> difficulty with social situations =/= antisocial
12:35 PM <Maxson|mobile> That's not the same as mental illness
12:35 PM <%Dora> I mean, can someone check the logs
12:35 PM <Maxson|mobile> And soulless did not once use the word "anti-social"
12:35 PM <toastedraptor> It's not okay for somebody to straight up attack somebody's social abilities over the internet for asking a legitimate question, lmao.
12:35 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, I believed that he had difficulty with the social situation that is not saying slurs in chat
12:35 PM <%Dora> did Soulless actually say antisocial
12:35 PM <toastedraptor> He PMed me saying he was hurt by the exchange.
12:35 PM <toastedraptor> It's not okay.
12:35 PM <%Dora> if I may have the floor for a moment?
12:35 PM <Maxson|mobile> Soulless didn't attack anyone's social abilities either
12:36 PM <toastedraptor> Except they did
12:36 PM <toastedraptor> Even went so far as to recommend a psychologist or social therapist
12:36 PM <Maxson|mobile> Dora: ?
12:36 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, generally, if someone is utterly incapable of telling the difference between using slurs and not using slurs, I think that is a social issue of which I do not know how to aid, and thus I think a professional may be needed
12:37 PM <Lux> "Antisocial" was never stated.
12:37 PM <&Soulless> If they do not understand what a slur is, or how to not use slurs, then I cannot help them
12:37 PM <toastedraptor> To be completely honest Soulless, I think you're being very passive-aggressive.
12:37 PM <Lux> heck maxon already answered it after i ctrl f'd it
12:37 PM <toastedraptor> You know quite well what was implied when you said that.
12:38 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, I apologize, I assure you my rhetoric is entirely that if a user has severe difficulty in understanding what is or is not a slur, or how not to use slurs, may need more help than I can personally ptovide them
12:38 PM <toastedraptor> You basically directed a dressed up insult towards him.
12:38 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, generally, for example, the socially acceptable response to "hey don't use that, that's a slur", is to say, "oh, okay", and not use it in this context
12:38 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, that I was asked instead, well, what's a slur? how do I avoid using a slur?
12:39 PM <%Dora> someone with access to full logs can check, but I do believe at at one point theaceofspace literally did suggest that we as chat op should be focusing on - and I quote - "helping people be impervious to those things"
12:39 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, this struck me as someone who may not be educated socially, in a manner I cannot help them
12:39 PM <%Dora> with "those things" in this case means "being upset about slurs"
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12:39 PM <%Dora> this, I do believe, appears to be a gross misunderstanding of
12:39 PM <toastedraptor> These sound like excuses.
12:39 PM <stormfallen> 7:13:25 PM <theacefospades> I suppose I would argue that if you wanted to pursue broder change, you would be better served working on helping people be impervious to those things, rather than hunting down the people that say the words
12:39 PM <stormfallen> relevant line
12:40 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, is someone who is unable to tell what a slur is, and how not to use a slur, someone who is socially adapted to general community?
12:40 PM <toastedraptor> We're talking about a conversation in an IRC chat room.
12:40 PM <%Dora> well, of the capacity of what could or couldn't be done in casual, non-clinical social contexts by untrained laypeople
12:40 PM <toastedraptor> You are not a professional nor do you have the ability to say whether or not anyone is socially clueless.
12:40 PM <Maxson|mobile> toastedraptor: people in an irc chat room are still people
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12:40 PM <toastedraptor> For you to then tell somebody to go see a psychologist/social therapist is very insulting.
12:41 PM <Maxson|mobile> In a community, who engage with one another socially
12:41 PM <toastedraptor> I can't speak for him, but had you said that to me, I would be extremely personally insulted.
12:41 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, if someone is unable to respond appropriately to being informed they used a slur, or that someone else had used a slur, it is not my responsibiulity- and if they are to the point where they do not even know what a slur is, then I can only encourage them to seek help elsewhere
12:41 PM <%Dora> if I may say one thing?
12:41 PM <toastedraptor> You're phrasing it like you were being nice about it.
12:41 PM <%Tuomey> toastedraptor: if you can't speak for him, then why are you doing so
12:41 PM <toastedraptor> Because that behavior bothers me Tuomey
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12:41 PM <theacefospades> uhhhhh. i'be been gone for a bit to drive home. So i don't know what's going on. So it might not be my place to comment. But i'im willing to clarify something if nobody objects
12:41 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, I understand these are very difficult subjects, but I am not formally trained in helping people understand how to behave appropriately socially
12:41 PM <altuser> hey I'm using an alt because I don't want to be targeted by anyone, but maxson it's kind of inappropriate to tell someone that they aren't hurt by what someone else said, or make excuses for something that somebody said if they say it hurt them
12:42 PM <Maxson|mobile> Altuser: that's not what I said at all
12:42 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, therefore I know that a professional may better answer their general questions as to how to behave socially appropriately when informed they have said a slur, or that otherts have said a slur
12:42 PM <altuser> hang on
12:42 PM <altuser> I'll find what you said
12:42 PM <&Soulless> toastedraptor, as I have not been formally trained in educating people on appropriate behavior
12:42 PM <toastedraptor> You know what? Whatever. You can justify it however you like. Soulless' behavior would be seen as nothing short of insulting by anyone objectively looking in.
12:42 PM <toastedraptor> Peace, guys. Take care.
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12:43 PM <theacefospades> I see no objections. I'll make my comment.
12:43 PM <theacefospades> I'm fully aware of what a slur is.
12:43 PM <theacefospades> i don't believe that people should have insults of any form in their vocabulary
12:43 PM <@ProcyonLotor> Okay
12:43 PM <altuser> 8:34 PM <Maxson|mobile> You're confusing soulless's suggestion that someone get help regarding difficulty with SOCIAL interactions and behaviors
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12:43 PM <BusyVolt> .au 9v
12:43 PM <altuser> this sounds like you're trying to tell someone what can and can't hurt them
12:43 PM <@ProcyonLotor> This has reached the point of absurdity and careened off it into stupidity canyon
12:43 PM <%jarvis> busyvolt: 9Volt ( http://www.scp-wiki.net/watts-maxwell-personnel-files ) has 12 pages (12 Originals) (9 SCP Articles, 2 Tales, 1 GOI-Format Articles). They have 620 net upvotes with an average of +51. Their latest page is SCP-3380: Science, Technology, Engineering, Divinity at +56.
12:43 PM ⇐ tawny quit (sretaw.delbuort.eht.ni.wolley.ynw|t#sretaw.delbuort.eht.ni.wolley.ynw|t) Ping timeout: 181 seconds
12:44 PM <theacefospades> i don't think calling somebody an "idiot" is in any way morally superior to calling them the R word
12:44 PM <Maxson> altuser: that was me saying that they wer econfusing two different topics
12:44 PM <altuser> and that's really pretty bad.
12:44 PM <Maxson> and two different meanings
12:44 PM <altuser> what difference does it make if they say it hurts them?
12:44 PM <altuser> that's not for you to decide
12:44 PM <stormfallen> ProcyonLotor: I think you muted the wrong channel
12:44 PM <Maxson> because "social" and "mentally ill" was the point they were coonfusing
12:44 PM <@ProcyonLotor> Oh fuck
12:44 PM <Maxson> and that difference in understood meaning can cause confusion
12:44 PM <altuser> I don't know it just made me really uncomfortable
12:45 PM <theacefospades> i wasn't pursuing a moral argument. I was pursuing a policy question. On how those things would be termed bannable.
12:45 PM <Maxson> and clarifying it can show that intention or the actual meaning is different
12:45 PM Channel mode set to +m by @ProcyonLotor
12:45 PM <@ProcyonLotor> I am convinced here that all the complainants are acting in bad faith, and if they are not, their complaints are so inherently absurd it would allow them to escape with more dignity if they pretended they were acting in bad faith.
12:46 PM <%Dora> ProcyonLotor can I raise a point of clarification?
12:46 PM <@ProcyonLotor> Please do not, Dora.
12:46 PM <%Dora> ok
12:46 PM <@ProcyonLotor> I do not want this to continue for a moment longer.
12:46 PM <@ProcyonLotor> Conversation over, and if you feel like testing that, well, go right on ahead.
12:46 PM Channel mode set to -m by @ProcyonLotor
12:47 PM <altuser> so you can just say "you're arguing in bad faith" and that's it?
12:47 PM <%salvagebar> You can continue elsewhere altuser
12:47 PM @ProcyonLotor banned *!*@8490C0CC:8D2C2A51:E186EFDD:IP (+b)
I'm unable to pull the logs of the actual offence in question from 19 because backscroll makes it far too unwieldy to be practical, but if someone could append those here that'd be appreciated. From what I can establish, though, one of the users involved was kicked for posting a slur in 19 then went to appeal the decision in 17.
(account deleted)
