Alright, last night another guy, name of LucidFox, came in. From the second he came in, he had an attitude, and when people called him on it, he turned into a pretentious ass.
<Sarah‘Dager>LucidFox: who’re you?
LucidFox>Quite new. Why so suspicious?
Ecks>noobs
<LucidFox>…
<TroyL>@Lucid and @Roland: There's a really awesome and amazingly creepy short story about class a's. I'll see if I can find it
<Sarah‘Dager>What Ecks said.
<jedifanatic>though that is assuming that there isn’t a bowl that refills itself with class a that the foundation doesn't fill the syringes for administering the class a's with
<LucidFox>Ecks> How nice of you.
<Sarah‘Dager>Well, y’all are.
<LucidFox>Real mature.
<Sarah‘Dager>Well you can’t expect us to be perfectly nice when you immediately come in with a 'tude
<LucidFox>You started it.
Roland>Actually, a question; is there any policy for or against making interlinked SCPs or a preference against sapient ones?
<LucidFox>Nor do I appreciate being called a derogatory term like "noob"
<Spelaeus>Yeah, that's what I was wondering about. Physics isn't quite my field, so I was wondering if it was SCP specific or something that I was just unaware of.
<Sarah‘Dager>You’re new, therefore noob.
<DWR>I got a renegade action option because of my Shepard's gender.
<Gerald>Sorry, Lucid, this is the internet.
<LucidFox>I came here expecting a nice, relaxed attitude that I came to expect of mature--
<LucidFox>Right
<DWR>noob isn't always derogatory.
<jedifanatic>monopoles are hypothesized to have existed at the beginning of the universe
<Roland>Ok, I think there's been a terminology misunderstanding
<LucidFox>Gerald> You lost the moral right to talk to me after playing this card
.<DWR>On Xbox live, yes, but so's everything else.
<Sarah`Dager>Well…it is
<LucidFox>Farewell, jerks.
|<—LucidFox has left irc.synirc.net (Quit: Additional instances cannot be launched, please try again later.)
After he left I banned him, and ended up getting a PM, and had a nice little chat.
[INFO] Query view for “LucidFox” opened.
<LucidFox> What did you ban me for?
=== LucidFox <~gro.medaca.725CF2A6-CRInys|nokis#gro.medaca.725CF2A6-CRInys|nokis> “Maia”
=== LucidFox: attached to fjord.no.eu.synirc.net “synIRC Norway”
—- End of WHOIS information for LucidFox.
<Gerald> Honestly?
<LucidFox> Yes, honestly
<Gerald> You were being a bit of a pretentious ass back there.
<LucidFox> …
<LucidFox> *I* was?
<LucidFox> I was reacting to people being rude to me.
<Gerald> No, you started off with a bit of an attitude, then proceeded to be rude when responded to.
<LucidFox> I was called a noob.
<LucidFox> In any case, I left the channel.
<LucidFox> What was the point of banning me after that?
<Gerald> It's the internet, people will inevitably be called that. It's not that derogatory.
<Gerald> <LucidFox> Gerald> You lost the moral right to talk to me after playing this card.
<Gerald> <DWR> On Xbox live, yes, but so's everything else.
<Gerald> <Sarah‘Dager> Well…it is
<Gerald> <LucidFox> Farewell, jerks.
<LucidFox> ,……
<LucidFox> Ah, so it was *you* who used that "argument"
<Gerald> And things like ^ only come off as being a pretentious ass.
<LucidFox> I would like to point out that I *never* saw this kind of immaturity on any of the 8 IRC networks I’m logged on.
<Gerald> I, for one, don't care about your 8 other Networks, and you pouting like a child seems far more immature than what the others were doing.
<LucidFox> …
<LucidFox> I would also like to point out that the phrase "this is the internet" is an indicator of a mentality of apathy and intolerance that I deeply resent.
<LucidFox> And I'm not "pouting like a child".
<LucidFox> I'm explaining the reasons I was put off by their behavior.
<Gerald> Getting all worked up because someone called you a noob is childish behavior. And then, when told not to get worked up, you became angry and left.
<LucidFox> Because of course it's better to quell me than the one who insulted me.
<Gerald> For one, Ecks wasn't even referring to you specifically. Two, people don't get punished for calling others noobs. People who get worked up, be a pretentious ass and leave in a huff, get punished.
<LucidFox> …
<LucidFox> Stop calling me names.
<LucidFox> This isn't behavior suitable for an op.
<Gerald> Really then.
<Gerald> Alright, if you have any problems with me being a moderator and an OP, you can take it up with a higher authority, one of the site admins.
<Gerald> PM Bright, if you need to.
<LucidFox> I'll do so. Thanks.
So….yeah. Pretentious ass gets banned from the chat.
Haha, oh wow.
"PM Bright, if you need to."
Wow, he really pissed you off, didn't he?
Man, now I want to see that log.
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> Hello there.
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <LucidFox> Greetings! I would like to complain about the actions of one of the ops at #site19.
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <Bright> All right, whats the problem, in your words?
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <LucidFox> Can you read the backlog of the channel?
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <Bright> Of course I can. But you tell me what the issue is.
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <LucidFox> In my words, the problems are multiple. He thinks it's not a problem if someone calls me a derogatory word like "noob". He thinks "this is the internet" is an appropriate response to getting aggravated about personal attacks.
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <LucidFox> And.
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <Bright> And…?
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <LucidFox> He called me a "pretentious ass" and said I was "pouting like a child" in respect to my quitting the channel.
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <Bright> Well, it sounds like you're being a fucking noob, with a really thin skin. So, maybe you should get the sand out of your vagina, and learn to deal like a big kid.
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <LucidFox> Do you honestly think that such a phrase is appropriate for a site administrator?
<Agent_Thompson> <Bright> <Bright> I honestly think you're being a whiny little bitch. We have fun, and it works for us.
Admin, SCP Wiki
Win.
That's terrible.
No it's not. It's a frank summation of the behavior of a problematic user. Bright bluntly gave his honest opinion on the issue rather than holding back to spare the blockhead's feelings, and that's a respectable thing.
you're all banned.
Honestly, if someone is going to freak out about 'Noob,' it's better they leave before they get exposed to the rest of our normal user base.
Admin, SCP Wiki
Very true.
I do wish you hadn't gone out of your way to be crass though.
I didn't.
Admin, SCP Wiki
I'm sorry, but when the end result is a new user leaving in a huff, it is not a respectable thing. If someone doesn't fit in, they don't fit in, but we shouldn't be openly hostile to random strangers who may want to contribute good material.
This guy sounds hilarious.
Ah well. Sounds like the type of fellow who would actually accomplish something, provided they didn't fly into a towering rage upon encountering, say, yoric.
…I shall take that in the spirit in which it was intended.
I do agree, though, that gerald was certainly much more tactful than I would have endeavored to be.
While I agree with the course of action taken, I kinda gotta fall on Dox's side: I think maybe we were unnecessarily harsh.
I also seriously dislike it when people take the attitude that being harsh is "win." Down that road lies Kondraki stalking people to Second Life.
You mistake the nature of my approval.
Bright could have said "I find your attitude reprehensibly immature and unnecissarily confrontational." And my response would have been the same. I appreciate the forthright manner in which bright approached the problem; that is, a user was attempting to stir up trouble for gerald, who had not only blatantly not crossed a line, but had actually attempted to helpfully council the user. Bright accounted the user's attempts to cause controversy exactly what merit they deserved: none. He dealt cleanly and decisively with the issue.
User actively trying to cause trouble, admin shutting them down. Win.
Someone who takes 'noob' as a horribly intolerant insult, isn't going to last long in a chat room where an affectionate nickname is 'niggerlips'
Admin, SCP Wiki
Precisely. Our best course of action is to ensure that they don't want to return, thus avoiding further drama.
It's one thing when nicknames like that are given to users that know that they're liked and have been around a while, and quite another when you're new and an admin in chat tells you to get the sand out of your vagina.
Yes, he was overly sensitive, and in this particular case it probably worked out for the best, but I find the "He wasn't cool enough for us anyway, I hope he never comes back" attitude worrying. It's awfully reminiscent of the most retarded of proud-oldfag /b/tards. Do we want to ressemble the worst of /b/? I think not.
So in the future, in chat at least, and when acting in the role of an admin or mod, please don't be quite so crass.
LucidFox was not trying to "cause trouble" for Gerald; Gerald specifically invited the user to chat with an administrator, a course of action they took. In any case, Gerald doesn't need to be defended against those who would subvert the harmony and security of this site: nobody's reputation is in danger here.
EDIT: I don't want to come across as overly sympathetic here. LucidFox definitely wasn't helping himself by flying off the handle at perceived insults.
I dissagree. To me, it looks as though lucidfox entered the chat with direct intent to cause tension, then once he had found what he considered probable cause, ran to the first convenient authority figure to tattle and got shut down accordingly. Bright's methods were spot on for dealing with the situation, and his words were no more acerbic than they would have been to any other user in similar circumstances.
"ran to the first convenient authority figure to tattle and got shut down accordingly"
Uhm, well, he got banned, so he PMed Gerald to ask about that. We're going to have to agree that asking about why you got banned is pretty reasonable, if you're unsure. Then Gerald told him specifically to ask Bright.
So I don't see how this "ran to tattle" theory of yours checks out.
I'm not saying LucidFox was in the right here; he certainly overreacted to basically nothing. But I definitely think we could have handled this better, and that he's not quite as faulty as we're trying to pin him to be. I know the chat is a lot less strict with language than the wiki, and that's putting it lightly. I mean, I allow ecks to exist, for heaven's sake. The one thing that I do ask is that, no matter the circumstance, hops/ops/sops -always- act respectfully.
So final word is that, please, in the future, try to handle the issue with just a bit more linguistic tact.
I see your point.
I still fail to see anything that was done that was crass.
Admin, SCP Wiki
Then that is a problem.
Even if he was crass, and I still don't think he went out of his way to be, I wouldn't think a single event constitutes a "problem".
Crass would have been "Then get the sand out of your cunt, you dumb twat." Or words to that effect. The words I did use, while perhaps a touch on the rude side, were not crass.
Admin, SCP Wiki
@yoric: I meant that his inability to recognize what was crass and what isn't is problematic, not this particular incident.
@Bright: That would have been more crass, yes. But when you're talking someone specifically as a mod, don't be at all on the rude side. not even a touch. maybe a dash, or a pinch at most, but a touch is too much :O
I wasn't going to say anything, but in light of this exploding into a lengthy discussion, I'm going to go step by step through what happened (cropping side dialogue), and express my opinion. You don't have to agree with me, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from.
<Sarah‘Dager>LucidFox: who’re you?
LucidFox>Quite new. Why so suspicious?
Ecks>noobs
<LucidFox>…
<Sarah`Dager>What Ecks said.
<LucidFox>Ecks> How nice of you.
<Sarah‘Dager>Well, y’all are.
<LucidFox>Real mature.
All right, here is my first problem. The log starts in media res. There was obviously something else that came before. I don't know what it is. For all we know, users were ridiculing and mocking Lucid before this began. But for the purposes of argument, we'll assume people were being polite to him before it all went down. I also have no idea what Lucid was behaving like before all this began. But from what follows, it's pretty clear things were not happy between Lucid Fox and the other users.
<Sarah‘Dager>Well you can’t expect us to be perfectly nice when you immediately come in with a 'tude
<LucidFox>You started it.
<LucidFox>Nor do I appreciate being called a derogatory term like "noob"
<Sarah‘Dager>You’re new, therefore noob.
Okay, seriously. What the hell? "You're new, therefore noob?" We've been making a serious effort to be welcoming to new people and avoid the bad old days when being new meant you were fair game for abuse by Draki et al. This doesn't help. At the very least, a mod should step in now and tell all parties to pipe down and relax.
<Gerald>Sorry, Lucid, this is the internet.
<LucidFox>I came here expecting a nice, relaxed attitude that I came to expect of mature—
<LucidFox>Right
Okay, I hate to say this, Gerald, but in this case, Lucid is right. That is not how you should have responded. Instead of damping conflict, you escalated it by responding in a snippish manner.
Like I said, I have no idea what went on before. Maybe Lucid was being a little snot and throwing his weight around. However, when someone puts on the "Mod" hat and speaks under that authority, it behooves them to behave with a certain amount of decorum and consideration. Think of new users as potential customers: they aren't always right, but they deserve to be treated with some modicum of respect.
Doesn't mean you have to roll over and be pretty please with sugar on top. If I had been the mod responding to this, I would have said something like, "All right, both of you pipe down. Sarah, quit harassing the newbie. Lucid, calm down, you're blowing this out of proportion."
<DWR>noob isn't always derogatory.
<Roland>Ok, I think there's been a terminology misunderstanding
<LucidFox>Gerald> You lost the moral right to talk to me after playing this card
<DWR>On Xbox live, yes, but so's everything else.<Sarah`Dager>Well…it is
<LucidFox>Farewell, jerks.
|<—LucidFox has left irc.synirc.net (Quit: Additional instances cannot be launched, please try again later.)
After this, Gerald gives Lucid a ban. I approve of this. Lucid made no attempt to integrate to the community, and no effort to try and resolve the matter. Instead, he left in a huff.
My next post will cover the private conversation between Lucid and Gerald.
Okay, Gerald. I wasn't happy with how you handled Lucid in the chat. However, the way you handled him in the PM, I think, was really damn good. Check it out.
<LucidFox> What did you ban me for?
<Gerald> Honestly?
<LucidFox> Yes, honestly
<Gerald> You were being a bit of a pretentious ass back there.
<LucidFox> …
<LucidFox> *I* was?
<LucidFox> I was reacting to people being rude to me.
<Gerald> No, you started off with a bit of an attitude, then proceeded to be rude when responded to.
Perfect. Lucid comes in with an attitude. You respond in a measured, but firm fashion.
<LucidFox> I was called a noob.
<LucidFox> In any case, I left the channel.
<LucidFox> What was the point of banning me after that?
At this point, I would have responded to Lucid's statement with, "What is the point of you coming to me in PM and arguing with me over this, then?" The user is clearly not interested in settling the differences. He just wants to argue. Put the ball back in his court. Make him argue why he's still making a big deal out of this.
<Gerald> It's the internet, people will inevitably be called that. It's not that derogatory.
Good statement. I would have added, perhaps, "I'm sorry if you were offended, but it's not that big a deal." Acknowledge his feelings but point out why he's wrong.
<Gerald> <LucidFox> Gerald> You lost the moral right to talk to me after playing this card.
<Gerald> <DWR> On Xbox live, yes, but so's everything else.
<Gerald> <Sarah`Dager> Well…it is
<Gerald> <LucidFox> Farewell, jerks.
<LucidFox> ,……
<LucidFox> Ah, so it was *you* who used that "argument"
<Gerald> And things like ^ only come off as being a pretentious ass.
I don't exactly agree with the tone, but I agree with what you did: you point out his behavior, and you explain why it's not acceptable.
<LucidFox> I would like to point out that I *never* saw this kind of immaturity on any of the 8 IRC networks I'm logged on.
<Gerald> I, for one, don't care about your 8 other Networks, and you pouting like a child seems far more immature than what the others were doing.
<LucidFox> …
<LucidFox> I would also like to point out that the phrase "this is the internet" is an indicator of a mentality of apathy and intolerance that I deeply resent.
Suddenly I understand why Sarah and Ecks were so hostile to this guy.
<LucidFox> And I'm not "pouting like a child".
<LucidFox> I'm explaining the reasons I was put off by their behavior.
<Gerald> Getting all worked up because someone called you a noob is childish behavior. And then, when told not to get worked up, you became angry and left.
<LucidFox> Because of course it's better to quell me than the one who insulted me.
Yeah, this is the one correct thing Lucid said. You should also have told the people calling him a n00b to pipe down a bit. I covered that last post.
<Gerald> For one, Ecks wasn't even referring to you specifically. Two, people don't get punished for calling others noobs. People who get worked up, be a pretentious ass and leave in a huff, get punished.
<LucidFox> …
<LucidFox> Stop calling me names.
<LucidFox> This isn't behavior suitable for an op.
I would have responded thusly: "I'm not calling you names. I am describing your behavior, and your behavior is that of a pretentious ass. You were being pretentious, and you were acting like a stubborn mule. Hence, an ass." Make him see you're not using profanity to be a jerk, but to make a point.
<Gerald> Really then.
<Gerald> Alright, if you have any problems with me being a moderator and an OP, you can take it up with a higher authority, one of the site admins.
<Gerald> PM Bright, if you need to.
<LucidFox> I'll do so. Thanks.
Not sure if you should have kicked it up to Bright. But given that Lucid is clearly not listening to you, maybe it was for the best.
Bright's response comes next.
<Bright> Hello there.
<LucidFox> Greetings! I would like to complain about the actions of one of the ops at #site19.
<Bright> All right, whats the problem, in your words?
<LucidFox> Can you read the backlog of the channel?
<Bright> Of course I can. But you tell me what the issue is.
<LucidFox> In my words, the problems are multiple. He thinks it's not a problem if someone calls me a derogatory word like "noob". He thinks "this is the internet" is an appropriate response to getting aggravated about personal attacks.
<LucidFox> And.
<Bright> And…?
<LucidFox> He called me a "pretentious ass" and said I was "pouting like a child" in respect to my quitting the channel.
Up until this point, things are going decently. Here is how I would have responded here.
"Well. I see your point. However, I also see Gerald's. You're taking this too damn seriously. 'Noob' is not a derogatory term here. We use it to describe all new users, and that lasts until they come in a second or third time. It's a joke. And the fact that you quit the channel over this sounds a lot like a child complaining that another kid in his class called him a bad name. Also, you were trying to claim "moral victory" in an argument about a mild insult in a chatroom filled with nerds talking about fake paranormal objects. That sounds rather pretentious to me."
In short, listen to his points, address them, but stand by your guy.
Instead, we get:
<Bright> Well, it sounds like you're being a fucking noob, with a really thin skin. So, maybe you should get the sand out of your vagina, and learn to deal like a big kid.
<LucidFox> Do you honestly think that such a phrase is appropriate for a site administrator?
<Bright> I honestly think you're being a whiny little bitch. We have fun, and it works for us.
I'm gonna let that speak for itself.
Simply put: we act like assholes in chat. We do it for fun. But when a user comes to you in an official capacity, I think it's time to put on the serious face and act serious.
That's me.
*nods*
Yeah, I'mma side with everything Clef said on this one.
I'm going to preface this with, you're right, I probably should have been a little more professional.
That being said, I hard a hard time taking this as serious. This person had a problem with the word 'noob' a word that as far as I've seen, has no negative conotations besides 'Hey, you're new and don't know anything.' I dealt with this from the point of view that this person was a rather obvious troll.
Admin, SCP Wiki
I think it's more the precedent than anything else. While it probably didn't matter in this case (there was no way Lucid was going to get along in our happy community), we don't want to make that a habit, or we might end up doing it even in cases where the person isn't a complete tool. I've had problems with this myself at times.
Also, if you're more professional when you deal with them, it makes them more likely to accept your decision (or, if they're an actual troll, to decide that they're less likely to get the response they want).
I am in accord with most of Clef's comments and all of his sentiments.
