Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

SoullessSingularity 01 Feb 2017 15:56

So since discussion has ceased a week ago about this thread I would like to put up a vote on what is gonna happen with regards to do this. Specifically Cyan would like some action made about their case in particular, as discussed in #site17. Dexanote said he'd be doing it after he got his shift, but I'm not seeing it here so I'm making it instead. I will not be voting because I have already agreed not to make any official positions on the matter. This is just getting things moving along as they should be.

As far as I understand from the interpretations of the thread we have a few options:

1) The Disciplinary Team decides that nothing needs to be done. Cyan will be told that it is not within the site's purview when offsite or real-life situations of harassment occur unrelated to the site itself.
2) The Disciplinary Team decides that an official announcement about their knowledge of the situation and condemning the actions of Antipuff/anons/other harassers of Cyan should be made and posted on mainsite.
3) The Disciplinary Team decides that an official announcement about their knowledge of the situation and condemning the actions of Antipuff/anons/other harassers of Cyan should be made and posted on Internet Outreach sites, such as the official tumblr, twitter, facebook, etc.
4) The Disciplinary Team disciplines antipuff, vince, troy, or fantem for their involvement. If you vote for this, state who and what punishments you deem necessary.
5) The Disciplinary Team decides to agree with Cyan's request that all logs, screenshots, etc. not already public that the Anti-Harassment team has should be sent to all operational staff excluding Fantem.

You are free to vote for all of them or none of them.

||~ Option 1    ||~ Option 2     ||~ Option 3     ||~ Option 4     ||
||                ||               ||               ||               ||

Example:

Option 1	Option 2	Option 3	Option 4
Yes	Yes	No	No

I'm going to give us all a week for this in case of shit. Afterwards I'll tally if no one else will.

EDIT: A 5th option has been added as I was given logs that Cyan requested that all information that the Anti-Harassment team has that is not covered in the 05command be made available to all operational staff excluding Fantem. It has been added here.

Logs of this in Site17:

+ show block

Cyantreuse (lennosrep.ssalc.kn|d#lennosrep.ssalc.kn|d23) has joined
18<Cyantreuse18> May I make a quick statement continuing the discussion from when I was in here a few hours ago
18<dexandroid18> Yes.
18<Cyantreuse18> this is re: my specific situation from the Issues with Cyan's Dismissal O5 thread.
18<Cyantreuse18> to quote someone whose name isn't relevant: re:harassment team:
24* Tuomey has quit (Client exited)
18<Cyantreuse18> "So unless you're on that team, you have no idea what's happening."
18<Cyantreuse18> "So there's no way to know what everybody else knows so you can collaborate on a solution."
18<Cyantreuse18> Okay, so I understand why it's Like This
18<Cyantreuse18> for privacy reasons.
18<Cyantreuse18> So I am formally requesting
19<Cyantreuse> that for my specific situation in the Issues with Cyan's Dismissal O5 thread, /any and all operational staff are made privy to every single detail. With the exception of Fantem due to her direct involvement./
18<dexandroid18> Okay.

EDIT EDIT: Option 5 has been rescinded.

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Living the dream, or dreaming the life?

Last edited on 02 Feb 2017 02:08 by SoullessSingularity Show more

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

AdminBright 01 Feb 2017 16:05

Option 1	Option 2	Option 3	Option 4
No	yes	no	no

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Admin, SCP Wiki

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

(account deleted) 01 Feb 2017 16:21

Option 1	Option 2	Option 3	Option 4
Yes	No	No	No

Reasoning
1) With the exception of Licensing, Staff don't claim any jurisdiction over what happens on other websites. What happened was incredibly fucked up, to be sure. However, even if we decided that Something Must Be Done, I'm not sure what Something would be that would be beyond empty posturing. I'm fine with "if it's not on the site or IRC, there's nothing we can do as staff" becoming official policy.

2) We haven't done this for past cases of harassment and plagiarism that have occurred on the site, and I don't think that we should do so now. It would just be putting staff on record as saying that we feel harassment is unacceptable. Since we have an anti-harassment policy and a whole team for that, the fact that we don't like harassment should be self-evident.

3) By all accounts, folks in the fandom are already well aware of this, and us issuing a statement that a) "we understand the situation" b) "if we find out who did this, they will be… something as yet undetermined" will do nothing to solve anything.

4) RE: Vince and Troy, absolutely not. As people have pointed out, it was a decision made in good faith, communicated very poorly, and, more importantly, they did nothing wrong per staff policy. RE: Fantem, unless she was acting in her official capacity as IO member when she reblogged the counter-callout, no. And even if she was, there is no evidence that I can see that she reblogged anything with intentional malice. It reads more like Fantem choosing to support a friend even if said friend did not provide proof for their allegation, which is very different from "knowingly spreading libelous material." RE: Antipuff, unless they harass Cyan or instigate further harassment of Cyan on their WikiDot and/or IRC accounts, there is nothing we can do it about it. Looking at their post history, this would appear to be more a symbolic action than anything else.

Collectively, staff fucked up by not giving Cyan a clearer answer, sooner. I include myself in this, and apologize.

Last edited on 02 Feb 2017 19:02 by (account deleted) Show more

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

RJB_R 01 Feb 2017 17:14

Option 1	Option 2	Option 3	Option 4	Option 5
Yes

Agreeing with Gaffsey. The other options feel highly unpalatable to me and I think they would cause more problems than they supposedly solve.

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Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

Dexanote 01 Feb 2017 18:49

Option 1	Option 2	Option 3	Option 4	Option 5
YES	SURE			ABSTAIN

None of this is under our purview. Cyantreuse said themself in 17 last night, during my first long discussion with them, that the situation had "escalated beyond Tumblr" when suggested that Tumblr staff be made intimately aware of the harassment offsite. If it's beyond the ability for the administration of the platform that a grand majority of encounters and harassment has happened on, it's beyond our ability and not the place of the SCP Foundation wiki to deal with. I would feel this way even if Cyantreuse did not make that statement, or phrase it in that way. There is literally nothing we can do or should do in a practical sense.

If enough people say yes for Option 2, sure, we can make an official condemning statement against the harassers through official channels. But I am not married to this option, and feel that it could enflame something afterward somehow. It really does nothing useful.

I'm going to abstain from Option 5 because I am not so certain now after personal review of agreeing to provide complete and total logs of absolutely everything to all staff excluding Fantem, because of logistics and also the fact that I'm reasonably certain people other than Fantem (and probably Fantem too at one point) will see the logs, some of which is sensitive.

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

thedeadlymoose 02 Feb 2017 00:34

I'm unclear on whether administrators should vote on this, as they always have a vote and voice in Disciplinary matters, but I am also not assigned to the Disciplinary Team and this is very much on purpose. If I should not be voting, then please exclude my vote.

I am abstaining on options 1 through 3 regardless. Even if I should be voting, I'm abstaining due to sheer exhaustion. I hope people are understanding of that; I had to drop a lot of things offsite to handle a lot of this in another role. I did this voluntarily because what Cyan is going through is incomparably worse, and I feel staff overall pretty much put them in a worse position and an admin very much should deal with that, but I also have limits.

Option 1	Option 2	Option 3	Option 4	Option 5
			Abstain/No	No/Yes (See Comments)

For Option 4:
Oppose RE: Discipline:Vince, TroyL

There are no grounds for which to discipline Vince or TroyL. I understand why it was put up to an advisory vote, but barring new information, there are no grounds, and Disciplinary would be literally obligated to tell staff at large to stuff it. (Well, more nicely.) It's also not being requested by anyone at all.

For Option 5:

Staff are subject to a horrifying level of burnout, and honestly, those 12-hour and 8-hour "shifts" I took trying to address the situation nearly led me to quit the site on the spot. I'm saying this for emphasis, not for sympathy (I did it all voluntarily and knowing what I was getting into, and was in no way pushed to do it). To do this correctly would require an incredible amount of effort and time, which would likely fuck up anyway.

The exclusion of Fantem makes sense from Cyantreuse's perspective (while I respect Fantem's opinion and actions, she still was in fact responsible for some part of what Cyantreuse went through), but it makes it nearly impossible for this to be done correctly. I cannot support such a request.

We also have no policy grounds from which to exclude Fantem. We would have to break how staff operates and rebuild from ground up. It would be easier to remove Fantem from staff … but we don't have grounds. This is why the anti-harassment team is set up the way it is — people are excluded by default. Otherwise, we would just invite all staff to spectate a private forum somewhere (which was considered in the past, btw).

There's also no point. Fantem already knows everything because everything was openly discussed in staff chat, because there really wasn't anything at all sent to the anti-harassment team that wasn't also sent to literally all staff… except the image dumps from Antipuff, the general content of which is already public, and which Fantem was already present for.

IE: Fantem is privy to literally every detail already.

I also cannot support passing on every single discussion the anti-harassment team had on to Cyantreuse that they were not already privy to. While it would be pretty much fine in this case, to be honest, it creates extremely bad precedent for the future. This would be a fundamental violation of the way the team operates — and would also shed no extra light on any part of the situation to boot. I don't think Cyan was requesting this, though.

I CAN and do support everything Cyantreuse told the anti-harassment team being made available to all staff.

So if:

• Fantem is not specifically excluded, based on the reality of how staff works, and
• Cyantreuse is not requesting internal discussion logs that no one outside the anti-harassment team is currently privy to

…then we don't even need a vote; I simply propose the anti-harassment team just do this in a giant pastebin dump of everything not presently public on O5, and link it in staff chat so everyone who asks can be directed to it. Though other suggestions are welcome.

Last edited on 02 Feb 2017 00:35 by thedeadlymoose Show more

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

(account deleted) 02 Feb 2017 01:25

I am not posting in this thread for any reason other than clarification of a proposal pitched by me and I am not voting nor attempting to vote.

…then we don't even need a vote; I simply propose the anti-harassment team just do this in a giant pastebin dump of everything not presently public on O5, and link it in staff chat so everyone who asks can be directed to it. Though other suggestions are welcome.

This is literally what I pitched originally. Please do this. No one told me when I asked in 17 "can this be a thing" that it would get voted on. The 'yes' I received read as "yeah, we'll send it to all staff." I in fact asked "is this a reasonable request" and was told yes. My request was not "vote on it." It was "make information available." And then I asked if my request could be carried out, and was told yes.

I am posting here because I pointed this unintended result out (the fact that I was told 'yes' in response to asking for this to happen, but then suddenly it was something to vote on rather than immediately instate, when this was not told to me at all) once in a PM to Gaffsey and once afterward publicly in #site17, and yet that information still has not been added to this thread and staff at large are functioning as if a vote is what I pitched because no one is telling anyone that I have said otherwise.

I will not respond to any of the other points made here for the sake of professionalism and brevity. The content of this post is only here because I tried to get it here through two means other than posting directly, and yet both means have not led to any informational edit or update in this thread. TL;DR: I disagree with the notion of Number 5 and such an action (a vote) is not at all what I requested in #site17. If Number 5 will be included in this vote, that is not for me to decide, but I am stating for the record that doing so is against my will as the pitcher of the original proposal.

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

thedeadlymoose 02 Feb 2017 01:36

In that case, I'm going to ask Dexanote (who made the honest error that led to this confusion) to compile this material and make it available in staff chat as soon as we are able.

Thank you very much for clarifying.

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

Dexanote 02 Feb 2017 02:07

Allow me some time. Shall put other things on hold to do so.

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

Quikngruvn 04 Feb 2017 01:23

Option 1	Option 2	Option 3	Option 4
No*	No	No	No**

1. I say No because I feel like "nothing needs to be done" is an insufficient response. But I don't know what would be an appropriate response, hence the asterisk.

2. and 3. I don't see how publicizing this clusterfuck any more will do anyone any good.

4. Vince and troy, fuck no. Antipuff, no, because it'd be symbolic, at best. Fantem, no, because she did not break any extant rule. However, I believe that there should be rules/restrictions on what staff can post on social media, hence the double-asterisk.

In the corporate world, it is common, if not expected, that, as part of their terms of employment, employees agree to restrictions in what they can share and discuss on social media. Typically such restrictions include prohibitions against sharing the company's trade secrets or discussing deals the company is working on. These restrictions are put in place to protect whatever competitive advantage the company has in its marketplace, and punishment for posting such information can be severe, including potential termination.

I believe we should have an analogous policy for site staff posting on social media, particularly staff on teams like Internet Outreach that are highly visible due to the nature of their position. (What such a policy would include belongs in another thread— I've hijacked this thread enough with my vote justification.) And, under such a policy, what Fantem did might fall under prohibited social media activity. Even if it did, though, I can't see anything worse than an official warning being levied in this case.

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

Zyn 04 Feb 2017 01:23

I've been kind of caught up with IRL things plus being sick, so… I might come back to elaborate more on my thoughts when I'm not feeling like I'm going to hack up mucus at any moment.

If I had to pick, I'm inclined to go with Option 1, personally, mainly because I'm not really sure what can be done given our limited reach as staff of a free website for hobbyists, and the fact that there's a lot of potential for further staff action to make the situation worse for everyone.

Last edited on 04 Feb 2017 01:28 by Zyn Show more

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

Bouncl 07 Feb 2017 18:50

Option 1	Option 2	Option 3	Option 4
Yes	No	No	No

Others have elaborated upthread. Our reach is limited. If or when we become capable of taking action, we should do so.

Re: Disc Team Voting - "Issues with Cyan’s Dismissal and General Surrounding Circumstances "

(account deleted) 08 Feb 2017 18:46

	Option 1	Option 2	Option 3	Option 4
Yea	5	2		1
Nay	3	4	5	6
Abstain	1	1	1
Majority vote	Yea	Nay	Nay	Nay

Disc team then chooses the option that there is nothing to be done and that offsite harassment is not within staff purview. We will let Cyan know as much.

Note: I counted the votes of Roget and Zyn as No's to 2-4, and Dexa's as No to 2-3, based on context. I also counted Mann as voting No to 1 and Yes to 4, based on his post here, because I am such a nice fellow. If any of these are in error, then let me know and I can update them.

e: Informed Cyan via PM.

Last edited on 08 Feb 2017 18:52 by (account deleted) Show more