Despite several talking tos by senior staff, Yoric continues to be an asshole without a cause. His most recent little tirades, including the bit where he disparages another member simply for a vote, I feel is taking things a little far. Honestly, he feels like Kondraki, without the power.
I'm thinking a ban of some kind. 24 hour always felt a little weak to me…
Admin, SCP Wiki
His consistent attitude is grating, I agree. What I find even more annoying is his apparent "Whatever" response to any negative criticism. He has brief moments of true, honest intelligence and insight, but these are often forgotten in the light of his other comments.
It appears the mass edit has brought out the worst in him. We've had a few people come out of the woodwork with some good comments, however Yoric appears to have convinced himself that he is better then the other users, and is somehow a mod or admin.
I feel his behavior falls in to the "immaturity" category outlined as unacceptable in the Site Rules. As such, action, if any, is now at the discretion of the Mod and Admin community. My personal vote would be for a VERY firm reprimand, and possibly a 24 hour ban. If his behavior continues after that, then i say we throw the book at him.
He's also managed to piss off Ghost as well, one of the most laid-back beings on the planet. I'd love to give him a harsher knock, but i'm willing to give him one more chance. However, that is what this is: a last chance. We punished Kondraki for this behavior, and he was a long-time user, and a admin to boot. Yoric is a basic member, and not nearly as beloved. He needs to be reminded of this.
With the vote of Gears, Bright, Rights, A Fat Ghost, and myself instituted a temporary block of yoric. As stated on the block, the reason is
"Violation of the rights of other users, specifically 1 and 5. Has not lived up to obligations 1 and 4. Blocked for 48 hours. Please remove block if this time has elapsed, and allow him to rejoin site."
I removed yoric from the member list (rather then remove and ban) and instituted a user block. At the end of the 48 hours, the block should be removed, and yoric should be invited to rejoin the site.
Kid PM'd me in chat, and I thought it was going to be an endless parade of whining.
But, I think he geniunely has no idea that he's being a colossal douchebag. I don't know how to phrase it any better to him, but if anyone else is willing to give it a try, go for it.
Not necessarily in for a ban though.
Well, it seems that he's decided to bitch about me calling him on his shit.
Nevermind what I said before. I'm up for a ban.
He talked to me about this. He seemed unnecessarily convinced he was being victimized by Ghost. I talked to him about this, and how it wasn't just Ghost having problems. I tried to communicate the sense that we feel his tone has often verged into being inappropriate, and that he needs to be watch it a little more closely.
I only hope it sank in.
I don't think a permaban is necessary, but I will support whatever it takes to get these occasional talks with us to sink in so that he regulates his behavior a little more.
Also, for future reference, hoiw does one instate a temp ban? Do we just remove them?
Admin, SCP Wiki
Banned from chat because he can't stop being a douchebag to new kids.
Permanent unless I get one hell of a good reason to let him back in.
Specific instances of Douchebaggery?
Admin, SCP Wiki
Basically more of everything that you, me, Gears, Break, and several others have talked to/tampbanned him for.
The problem is, I like Yoric. I see a lot of potential in him. He has growna lot in the time he's been with us, and, the major problem i see, is he's gotten too good at emulating the Senior Staff, without any of the power behind it.
Admin, SCP Wiki
And the problem with that, as I see it, is that he can't be trusted with that kind of power.
Also a lack of ability to even thinly veil an insult.
I think i have to veto this chat ban. It doesn't actually sound like he's doing anything that bad. He's being an asshole to newbies. So? A lot of us are. It's not that big a deal.
Admin, SCP Wiki
Actually, it's getting to the point where he's starting to bug the hell outta me, and that's fairly bloody hard to do. I'm thinking he either needs another proper talking to, or something because it's just getting a little too much.
Kid has to have had about five "proper talkings to" by now, eh.
No, I mean just him going around being a pain in the ass and starting shit is irritating to watch. And besides, when some of us are assholes to newbies, it's usually for a reason.
I've been looking at some of the discussions he's started, and they are very good points he brings up. He may not be using the best language to do them, but I don't see them being that inappropriate… *shrug*
Admin, SCP Wiki
I think the major issue here is his near-total lack of any tact or guile. There are ways to say things so that you won't start a argument…and then there's what Yoric does. He's not a total wreck, and i have to agree that he does make good points, but he consistently does so in as abrasive and polarizing a manner as possible.
I have to agree that he does have promise, but i also agree that he has gotten far too good at emulating staff before that title has been earned. If we can somehow pound tact in to his thick skull, he might do rather well. However, he seems hard to get through to.
However, recently, he seems to have begun noticing it himself, and correcting for it.
Admin, SCP Wiki
Let me cite a example of yoric's promising but frustrating talents:
Radioactive ZombieRadioactive Zombie 6 Oct 2009, 09:57 -0-400
It's just me, but I don't like this character. (Or her weaponry, for that matter.)
/thinks it's a Mary Sue
seriously did it just breach containment
/with several armed guards
in a tactically un-sound site
reply | options
unfold by Radioactive ZombieRadioactive Zombie, 6 Oct 2009, 09:57 -0-400
fold
pooryoricpooryoric 6 Oct 2009, 12:53 -0-400
/thinks your formatting is awful
seriously what was that supposed to be?
/with several random backslashes
//in a goofily in-coherent postActually, on second thought, it has a sort of e. e. cummings charm to it.
But no. She's not a sue. She's just very very very good at what she does.
This, i think, is the issue many people (including me) have. Yes, his comment was witty and has a valid point. However, it is pretty biting and has a equal chance of having the valid point getting lost due to the recipient flipping out. I have a grudging like for yoric at times, and other times he frustrates the living shit out of me. He can be a good user, and maybe even rise in the ranks, i know he can, but it's nonsense like this that is keeping him held back.
Wow, sometimes I feel like Gears is reading my thoughts or feelings about a topic and putting thm out there. It's actually starting to get a little weird.
After talking with Gears, I'm going to have a dicussion with Yoric, and lay everything out for him.
Admin, SCP Wiki
I think it might of, he seems to have calmed down somewhat over the past week or so.
ARGH!
He's in my head, and he's a lolcat!!!
Unbanned, per deal myself and Gears worked out with him, wherein he wasn't a dick for a month in the forums. If he fucks up again, get logs, and let me know.
Admin, SCP Wiki
Yoric has once again been banned from chat. In this case, I was unsure whether it was warranted, so put it up to a vote from the users who were there at the time. General consensus is that the ban was deserved.
The incident, in short: Frank pissed off his stepfather and a domestic argument broke out, involving kitchen knives and people being grabbed by the hair and faces being pushed into walls. The cops were called. Yoric's response was to basically call Frank a pussy for calling the cops into a family matter. I banned him for his extreme lack of tact, callousness, and rude behavior.
The complete log is here if you wish to view it:
scp-eval.pastebin.com/m2aa7d399
I have also attached a log of a conversation yoric and I had in PMs. In general, I found him unapologetic and unwilling to accept that his behavior may have been uncalled for.
14:30 pooryoric what's the deal with a warning then a ban without me saying anything in between?
14:30 Clef I just want to give you a few minutes to reflect on where this conversation is going.
14:31 pooryoric I question the wisdom of encouraging frank,, because I know a bit about him and his situation.
14:32 Clef Okay, what the fuck is that supposed to mean?
14:32 pooryoric why that bothers you, or when I seemed particularly intense about it I'm not sure, but I apologise for having given offense.
14:33 pooryoric it's apparent that we have differing viewpoints. I'll drop the issue.
14:33 Clef No, no no
14:33 Clef tell me what the fuck you mean by this, I'm curious.
14:35 Clef Given that you seem to be the one with all the answers in this situation, who knows everything, I'd like to know when it became a good idea to tell someone in the middle of a domestic violence situation that they're a pussy for calling the cops.
14:36 pooryoric clef. his "domestic violence situation" hinges on the fact that he spent several hours the other night stoned off his ass and his stepfather found out about it.
14:36 Clef And that justifies having his hair pulled and his face slammed into walls?
14:37 pooryoric that said, I'd prefer to drop the issue, because frankly you seem intent on taking my statements in the negative.
14:37 Clef Yoric, I'm finding it hard to take them any other way
14:39 Clef If he were calling the cops over being spanked in the ass or grounded, I'd tell him to suck it up and not be a whiner, but being face slammed into walls, if that's what's going on, is excessive. Would you agree to that?
14:39 pooryoric like I said, it's apparent we have differing viewpoints here. I can't honestly understand any parent who'd -not- be enraged and attempt drastic disciplinary measures in that situation. besides which, from conversations I've had with frank, he seems like the sort of person who would provoke the incident intentionally specifically for the sake of taping it.
14:40 pooryoric I question the wisdom of us getting involved with the situation at all.
14:41 pooryoric I'm more inclined to believe that frank is exaggerating for attention.
14:42 Clef I have no doubt that's a possibility. In which case, if I felt that was the situation, I'd shut the fuck up and wait to see what happens, instead of running the risk of appearing a tremendous gaping asshole otherwise.
14:44 Clef In any case, I feel your behavior displays an extreme lack of tact and compassion.
14:44 pooryoric you seem to assume I'm a tremendous gaping asshole regardless, clef. it's not something I consider. I just wanted to point out that everyone jumping in and telling him to do this or do that without knowledge of the situation can't possibly be a good thing.
14:45 Clef Yoric, question
14:45 pooryoric apparently, something in my phrasing read to you like an endorsement of violent behavior.
14:45 Clef Yoric, you basically called him a pussy for calling the cops on a domestic violence situation.
14:45 Clef Now
14:46 Clef Putting aside what provoked it, or what is or is not really going on there.
14:46 Clef Is that the kind of thinking we want to encourage?
14:47 Clef Think that over.
14:47 Clef I'm gonna put your return, or not, to a vote.
14:49 pooryoric I question here how much this is a personal matter for you.
14:49 pooryoric it seems to be an issue that touches you personally.
14:50 Clef Well, yoric, I'm getting a response from many of the other users that says, "No, unban him," or "Wait, he was banned again?"
14:50 pooryoric that's not meant as an accusation.
14:50 Clef So apparently it doesn't just touch me.
14:50 Clef I'll put it up to the mods and let them decide.
14:53 pooryoric had you not, I suppose I would have had to. I prefer not to be banned, especially not over something so petty.
14:55 pooryoric you havve logs to show them, I assume?
14:56 Clef yes, of course.
14:57 pooryoric what, specifically, are you actually accusing me of, clef?
I'm putting this one up to the rest of the mods: I don't know if we're overreacting here, but I've found that yoric's presence on the chats has generally been disruptive, and that the disruption almost always centers around him, or something he says or does. Your call whether we should allow him to stay: my vote is no, we've given him more chances than Laugher, and he's cropped up as a problem again after every time.
I think yoric's response was uncalled for and frankly offensive.
I've never gotten along with yoric. Maybe that's because I'm a chat-mostly person and don't read the wiki forums as much as I should. Apparently he's doing something right on the wiki, since he's been promoted to senior staff. But on the chat I find him a pain most of the time.
I will say this though; he's leaps and bounds better now than when he first appeared, at least in terms of sheer annoyance. And most of the time I think he's rather harmless, I'm frankly a bit surprised at this incident.
I know I've already permabanned him from channel once, but this is silly. Not only is it far too easy to get under this kid's skin, he still hasn't figured out how not to talk down to just about everyone who isn't higher up on the totem pole than him.
Based on keeping up with the last few days of posting, I also assume that he is probably going to be reading this thread. Yoric, myself and several other mods have warned you, but you have shit the bed and must now sleep outside. I recommend removal of senior staff status and have an automatic vote of yes if this becomes a siteban issue.
I disagree with everything you guys have said. I fail to see how this is even something that is being discussed. Frank was being a tool, airing his dirty laundry on the internet, Yoric expressed his distaste of it. We've tolerated a lot more from people like Kondraki and Fishmonger without even a temp ban.
I don't even see any reason to vote on this. This is a non-issue.
Admin, SCP Wiki
I second Bright's opinion, essentially. Frank was really in a situation, but Yoric's like the rest of us. The internet has trained us to beleive in nothing, and to take people with quite a bit of skepticism. He aired his views in a way I'm sure I would have if I thought the situation was fake or being overexagerrated. I don't think Yoric was actually aware that Frank's situation was quite real.
The problem in this matter was more of Yoric not listening to Clef, in my mind, than anything to do with Frank.
And yeah, we have tolerated a lot more from us senior staff ourselves without any punishment. I'd call to let him stay on.
As a post here has been adressed to me, I suppose it is accepable for me to respond. If that is incorrect of me, I apologise. It's rather a long post, as well, and I apologise for that too.
Frankly, in this instance, I am unequivocally unapologetic. I believe that it is wrong for members of this chat to have been involved in any way with Frank_Horrigan's family matters, though were I to be pressed on the issue I would say that I believe contacting the police in regards to his "treatment" is both laughable and a waste of police time.
I further believe that Clef responded unfairly to the incident, and have recieved messages from several other users, most noteably Beatrice and Saevitia, neither of whom were able to 'vote' on my ban, agreeing with my assesment. A perusal of the logs from site 19 will show more than a bit of apparent personal feeling on clef's part, and my conversation with him contains multiple instances of my attempting to drop the matter only to have him respond harshly and insist that I not do so, often using language more inflammatory than any I employed over the course of the incident.
I believe that Kald was correct in his assesment of my behavior. In a word, I was callous. Frank_Horrigan's 'domestic violence' is no different from a normal day in my family, and as such I am incapable of treating it with the shock and revulsion clef seems to have expected. If that is a crime, I am guilty as charged. I do not feel, however, that callousness is a crime warranting punishment, beyond what little stress it may cause in conversation with Frank in the future. I find it worth noting that Frank himself, as far as I am aware, expressed no issue with my response. I believe that a ban is an overreaction, though an understandable one considering my history.
In short, I was rude, and expressed an opinion differing from Clef's, and for that I am banned. I feel predictably about the matter, and ask that the moderation community reconsider.
Now I'll drop the respectful tone to take a moment to personally apologise to Clef. I got the feeling that the way I reacted struck a chord with you personally, and I really am sorry. We've had our differences in outlook, but I have a lot of respect for you as a superior in the community and as a writer, and in the times you deign to talk to me without calling me creepy as fuck, you seem like a nice guy. Sorry for this. I didn't expect it to be anything near as serious as it has wound up.
Also, if I am not allowed back into site 19, can someone let me know when Frank is online? Even though I don't feel that I was wrong in my opinion, obviously the way I expressed it was over the line, and I'd like to apologise to him too. Apparently, outside my experience the sort of treatment he got is serious and disturbing (which worries me, no lie), and if it really is a serious issue to him I don't like the idea of being remembered as not caring.
Sorry, all. I will accept whatever conclusions you reach with no further complaint. If this post makes me look like even more of a callous douche, I'm sorry for that too. That's not the idea.
Honestly, it makes you seem pretty mature by most site standards.
One last thing:
Why should he have taken it seriously? When has site19 ever been for anything serious? We toss out porn links, joke around, and occaisionally get SCP work done, but I'm sure as hell not gonna come into chat for serious problems. That's what RL is for.
Admin, SCP Wiki
From another user, who doe not have access to the Admin site, Heiden writes:
To me, after reviewing the logs, it appears that Yoric simply had the misfortune of striking a nerve of Clef's. The exact incident that prompted his banning is unclear to me, unless he was banned for saying 'right, sorry' after he said something two seconds after Clef's ultimatum. If Clef was calm, cool, and rational at the point this occurred, I would be /greatly/ surprised.
The points Yoric made were not, perhaps, in the best of taste - but they were no worse than advice given by individuals that Frank's stepfather be killed, except that they didn't agree with the general sentiment of the chat at the time. Rejecting the view of FH as a victim is perhaps not the kindest of sentiments, but given the one-sided nature of the presentation from FH and Yoric's claimed personal knowledge of the situation (see the PM log), I can understand where he's coming from. Beyond that entirely - if Yoric was entirely in the wrong, the ban still fails to stand. At no point did Yoric claim, as Clef insinuated, that calling for police intervention in a domestic violence situation was a 'pussy' thing to do. Yoric's focus was /clearly/ on urging FH to reconsider whether this situation merited police involvement, as this falls pretty damn close to an irrevocable decision - this can easily break a family. Yoric wasn't even particularly sharptongued on the subject, just stating his disagreement mildly before Clef jumped down his throat.
In the end, I feel like this is more because Yoric said it than anything he actually said. Beatrice and I engaged in some disgracefully inappropriate conduct (we trolled site19 into thinking she was in a gay-to-straight 'reeducation camp') which is far more insensitive and inappropriate than Yoric's words here, but received not even a reprimand from senior staff. This is not to say that what Beats and I did was /okay/, but that there seems to be more factors playing into this ban than simply what was said. I don't honestly believe Yoric deserves a reprimand for this - frankly, I believe Clef does if anything. Moderation demands a cool head and a responsible tone, and considering only the moderator in this situation was enraged, deliberately overstating Yoric's case in the most obscene terms possible, I don't think an unbiased approach was taken or even considered.
My two cents.
Admin, SCP Wiki
I'd like to address the idea that this touched me personally: yes, it did. No, I won't elaborate. No, I don't think that it had any real bearing on how I handled this case. And yes, I responded to those people who had the bright idea that telling Frank to kill his stepdad was a good idea.
I disagree with the idea that Yoric was telling Frank to take a second thought before calling the cops: if he'd said, "Frank, are you sure you want to do this? There will be consequences," I might agree. However, statements like, and I quote, "you're a high school guy calling the police because someone pulled your hair," display an extreme lack of tact and callousness.
I also can't speak to what other senior staff do. As some of you know, I'm often on the chat from work, so I don't always respond to things going on in the chat. If other incidents occured that weren't responded to, I think that speaks less to a condoning of said incidents on our part and a lack of oversight on the part of the admins at other points in time.
I guess, in the end, the question is, what direction did I err? I'd personally rather err on the side of caution in the case of a possible real life situation than on the other. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I don't think that, just because we came from 4chan, we necessarily have to be the kind of people who'd respond to a person threatening to commit suicide with the words, "Do it, faggot." Which, honestly, was the way that Yoric's came off in this situation.
Your call, I'll let the admins decide this one.
Since when is lack of tact a crime?
Admin, SCP Wiki
Thought about this all day, and for the most part I agree with Clef. Whether or not they should, whether or not it's good for them to, the size and activeness of the Site19 chatroom mean that important real-life issues are going to crop up occasionally. When they do, I only hope we'll be able to take them for what they are and react appropriately.
Tact, in these cases, is good and important. Yes, we're all on the internet and don't have actual faces attached to our actions, and yes, you can get away with it, but we have a responsibility as people not to kick a man while he's down (if not actually helping him out). Being a dick is also fine and excusable in most cases, but as for the severe-er ones, well, it's never too late to start having standards. A version of it is even in the chat rules- "Along those lines, while we do goof around a lot, time and a place. Someone talking about the death of their father is not the time to launch into porn and knock knock jokes."
—-
…But look, I'm waxing on general policy here. If I had been there, I would have definitely supported Clef's suggestion of the ban, at least for a couple of hours to prevent the situation from worsening and so that Frank could work out what was going on without being antagonized (or anything that could have been considered "antagonizing").
But Yoric agreed to stop, and it looks like two posts came through at nearly the same time, so by that point it was probably an accident it was banned. Also, in the PM conversation with Clef, Yoric had agreed to stop, and Clef insisted on continuing with it, and it degraded from there.
I think Yoric ought to be allowed back in the chat, as he's seen all of our viewpoints here.
Also, in #Site17, Paradox came up with the suggestion of a 5-minute or so "microban" for any kind of excessive behavior, in which a mod or admin can clearly explain to a user what they're doing wrong and how to stop it. I think this would facilitate good interactions, and be more effective then a set of kickings or an extended ban in a lot of cases, so maybe we should work on this.
I don't think either user is really in the wrong here. While I definitely agree that yoric's remarks were on the insensitive side, the ban was too heavy a punishment for what was simply a difference of opinion. Still, Clef's actions were understandable, and yoric acted well. Overall, I think this is too small and too peripheral an issue to the site itself to warrant punishment.
For what it's worth, I feel that the situation is over, and would like to see the matter dropped, please. Of course, I would feel that way… Still, I'd like to not be banned.
I have to say, while a shitty comment, Yoric's ban is a bit heavy. He's expressed regret and is attempting to make amends, and I'm willing to let this pass. We all say very, VERY stupid shit from time to time, and I think Yoric's brain/keyboard filter failed for a bit.
That being said…Yoric: I keep seeing your name pop up when every ass-baggery is afoot. Your a smart kid, and have buckets of potential, please stop screwing it up by being a intolerable twit. You've been spoken to a few times about this, and I want this to be the last time, ok? Before you post something, look it over and think "If i said this to someone i didn't know, would it really piss them off/possibly blow up in my face?". If yes, you may want to think about re-typing it.
*signs write-up* There, now get out of my office and back to class.
Thank you. I'll do my damndest not to cause this sort of incident again, however inadverdently.
Yoric has been informed that since it is in the topic of the chat, and the newbie guide, further spamming of the sandboxes in either chat or forum will result in a one week ban, from whichever he did it in, as will attempts by him to coerce users into using the sandboxes over the pastebins.
Free Choice, it is a bitch.
Admin, SCP Wiki
