It was brought to staff attention that user Mavis Shiro had posted a series of rude and insulting comments directed at multiple users in violation of Rule 0. Staff has elected to ban the user for a period of 1 month.
Ariadne, Aster, stormbreath, subtletea, and Zyn supporting.
Uncle Nicolini and Kufat abstained.
Porting comments for context/records-keeping:
The user's first post of note was in the Complaints Thread discussion: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-5797485/complaints-thread#post-7154232 following a coldpost of theirs being processed through standard deletion
Heya everyone, a new member to the SCP Foundation site here, and I'd just like to express some very disappointing thoughts and feelings about those who handle the site and how things operate.
So I joined not long ago at all, and with most guidelines on how to write SCP's being very hidden and all over the place in various articles and pages (You guys seriously need to work on this, really. Like put a IMPORTANT NEWCOMER GUIDE or something on the front page, not have us sift through tons of forums and all that.) I did the best I could to post an SCP with heart.
Now, once I found an entry I liked, I began editing, and oh…oh God, what are all these symbols, options, and unexplained tools? I really had to click and test every single one just to find out what they did? Very unprofessional and user-unfriendly. No guide on that I presume, huh? Or is it lost somewhere in all the forums? Either way, I did the best with what I got.
Once I finished everything up and posted it
(on top of also having to figure out how to remove the ACCESS DENIED on the SCP list, which was not explained anywhere how to do by the way, just that you should do it), I excitedly watched as my post began having downvotes flooding in.Now sure, I don't expect my work to be amazing or to fit everyone's tastes, but goodness, I've seen review bombing for games have more generosity and sense. Why am I being downvoted so much? Can I get feedback? Why do we only need 10 VOTES TO DELETE AN SCP? HELLO?
The entire rating system needs to be either reworked or removed entirely. You cannot allow people to downvote unless they type out a reason, no exceptions. If downvoting leads to removal, you have to have standards somewhere. It's like if Steam allowed games to be removed from the platform once they got 20 bad reviews with no written words in each one. Sounds stupid, right? Why is there even an ability to delete based off votes? Articles should only be deleted for having obscene offensive content or obvious lazy work or AI, not genuine works. Whose standards am I trying to appease here? Why do I HAVE to? It's not your SCP, so it doesn't need to appeal to you or get deleted. We're all here to have fun and observe one another's works.
You say this is to ensure the site has standards, and that posts meet good quality expectations, but if a well-thought-out SCP spanning multiple paragraphs on top of having multiple pictures can be deleted by 10 redditors who thought "eh, I don't like it", then how is something like 173 good? SCP 173 —- while yes, it was the og first SCP, it is two paragraphs with no photos and a very basic premise. Is this the kind of standards we should follow? Make it make sense. As long as people really tried with their submissions, who the hell cares about "standards"? We have joke SCP's and that one nonsensical garbled pile of trash, I Am At the Center of Everything. Is that up to our standards?
SCP is supposed to be a fictional universe with all kinds of amazing ideas, creatures, ect, but if those who want to contribute to the world get gatekept and blocked off from doing so because those in charge believe they seriously can write better than half these submissions, then I believe this site has sadly gone to the dogs, which is deeply depressing.
Any moment now, my SCP will be deleted, so I've made sure to copy it all and save it elsewhere for safekeeping. I know you'll probably say "post it in the sandbox forums" but I don't WANT to do that. I WANT it here. Who is really going to go to the sandbox forums to see SCP's? Especially when you have to FIND it in this mess of a site?
I love this universe and everything about it, but God, it is so sad to see yet another fandom that I have to avoid like My Hero Academia or anything else just to be able to enjoy it and seem normal to those outside the fandom. I offer a challenge to those who run the site; write an SCP and post it. See if you can keep it up without deletion. I wonder how it'll fare.
I really don't want to come off as bitter or anything, but damn, this site was very user-unfriendly to use, everything took a while to do, and after all my work, I just get booted out by 10 random kids. Really, how am I supposed to feel? I can't edit my SCP, there isn't anything TO edit. It matches similar themes and ideas as others on the site, and it's written the same way too, so no matter what I do, it won't matter. 10 people just…don't like it, so I'm screwed. That, or they are review-bombing me just to free up my slot for them to use. Bet nobody thought about that being a possibility here either, but oh well.
To those remaining on the site, godspeed to you all, because I know being here and trying to appease the Elder God's that run it must be as stressful and time-consuming as a full-time job.
This was a decently rough blemish to my love for the universe of SCP, and I'm sad to see what has been done to it in regards to something as important to it as the wiki. Hopefully something eventually happens to restructure the whole site, or remove all those currently in charge, because we desperately need new, friendly, and normal people running it. Guys like us, like-minded folk who contribute to the site as anyone else does. Not Corpo writing snobs who WITH A STRAIGHT FACE put on their writing page that you need COLLEGE-LEVEL WRITING SKILLS? What the hell is this, a job application?!
Take it easy guys, you aren't getting paid for this. Please try to have fun and consider all the feedback here. Make SCP's site a place where everyone can have fun and interact again.
Of note, the user edited the post later to change:
(You guys seriously need to work on this, really. Like put a IMPORTANT NEWCOMER GUIDE or something on the front page, not have us sift through tons of forums and all that.) I did the best I could to post an SCP with heart.
to
(You guys seriously need to work on this, really. Like put a IMPORTANT NEWCOMER GUIDE or something on the front page, not on a drop-down button, or have us sift through tons of forums and all that.) I did the best I could to post an SCP with heart.
Excerpts of note:
The entire rating system needs to be either reworked or removed entirely. You cannot allow people to downvote unless they type out a reason, no exceptions. If downvoting leads to removal, you have to have standards somewhere. It's like if Steam allowed games to be removed from the platform once they got 20 bad reviews with no written words in each one. Sounds stupid, right? Why is there even an ability to delete based off votes? Articles should only be deleted for having obscene offensive content or obvious lazy work or AI, not genuine works. Whose standards am I trying to appease here? Why do I HAVE to? It's not your SCP, so it doesn't need to appeal to you or get deleted.
You say this is to ensure the site has standards, and that posts meet good quality expectations, but if a well-thought-out SCP spanning multiple paragraphs on top of having multiple pictures can be deleted by 10 redditors who thought "eh, I don't like it", then how is something like 173 good? SCP 173 —- while yes, it was the og first SCP, it is two paragraphs with no photos and a very basic premise. Is this the kind of standards we should follow? Make it make sense. As long as people really tried with their submissions, who the hell cares about "standards"? We have joke SCP's and that one nonsensical garbled pile of trash, I Am At the Center of Everything. Is that up to our standards?
To those remaining on the site, godspeed to you all, because I know being here and trying to appease the Elder God's that run it must be as stressful and time-consuming as a full-time job.
This was a decently rough blemish to my love for the universe of SCP, and I'm sad to see what has been done to it in regards to something as important to it as the wiki. Hopefully something eventually happens to restructure the whole site, or remove all those currently in charge, because we desperately need new, friendly, and normal people running it. Guys like us, like-minded folk who contribute to the site as anyone else does. Not Corpo writing snobs who WITH A STRAIGHT FACE put on their writing page that you need COLLEGE-LEVEL WRITING SKILLS? What the hell is this, a job application?!
About an hour later, the user posted the following comment on a page written by the admin who carried out the standard deletion of the coldpost: https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-15427806/scp-7727#post-7154364
I can't believe this is an SCP that's escaped deletion. No thought put into this at all. To believe the creator of this is a site administrator, God help us all.
Upon the post receiving multiple responses (preserved below for ease of reading), the user responded:
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-15427806/scp-7727#post-7154450 (user did not respond to this comment)
I hate to say that you are right, because being a hater isn't cool. But I feel you on this one. It feels like a spin on "cool air" with very little of actual interest.
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-15427806/scp-7727#post-7155362
Did you really get so upset at the response to your complaint thread you looked up another user's history to trash-talk their article? Calm down and just appreciate what the wiki has for reading. Go to the crit forum if you're having trouble with your writing. And for god's sake stop having a meltdown over a unsuccessful article. Very few people start out successful, it takes time to acclimate to the site's style of writing and we have higher standards than we had in Series-I, so you will need time to improve. And to add, this site is very much about community, so randomly insulting users will make people less likely to want to comment on your pages or interact with you at all, reducing the opportunities for you to improve.
If you don't like how this community functions, feel free not to be a part of it. But if you genuinely want to participate here, take the time to understand how the site works and stop lashing out at others randomly. It will only make things harder on you.
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-15427806/scp-7727#post-7156661
I actually didn't even read any responses to my post in the complaints thread before posting my valid critique of this SCP. I simply clicked on the admin that initiated the deletion and was curious to see their works. Lo and behold it brought me here, which um…wow, I see he definitely has the creative mind to be deleting other's works.
As for appreciating what the Wiki has, I can't do that with low-effort posts like this one. They're quite common now, which contradicts the apparent standard the site it trying to uphold. In fact, these "higher standards" are self-destructive to the creative vision SCP once had. The standards are unclear when SCP's like this exist. I don't see a J anywhere to signify this was a joke SCP, so I can make this valid critique on this post, which is very generous when I got next to no feedback myself when it was being brigaded with downvotes.
I have nothing to improve. If SCP's like mine are being rejected while ones like this pass and stay, we don't stand a chance unless we write something to get a laugh from the readers, which means SCP is now a meme fandom.
Lastly, yes, I agree this site is a community-focused effort. So let's work as a community to uphold one another and ensure works are fairly and constructively critiqued and not downvoted into oblivion with no clear reason as to why, because for whatever reason you don't need to type anything to give a downvote that can cause a deletion. Like awesome, my entry was deleted, time to look over how I could improve and —- oh wait, there is no feedback. Whoops.
(Continuing comment porting.)
About half an hour following the user's post in the discussion thread of the page created by the admin (nico) who processed the summary deletion, they responded to comments in the Complaints Thread:
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-5797485/complaints-thread#post-7154362
A lot of these complaints are things that can be solved by getting crit and reading the Guide for Writing, which is linked in the top left at all times (in the Guide for Newcomers)
This is a writing website for adults so it should be a given most people have high level reading skills. Even if you don't, there's crit spaces also in the guide for writing to assist.
Also, the sandbox forums are for storing drafts in order to get crit. Crit is almost always necessary for writing something good.
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-5797485/complaints-thread#post-7154372
hello!
i am an admin on this site and will address your points one by one.
You guys seriously need to work on this, really. Like put a IMPORTANT NEWCOMER GUIDE or something on the front page
we have a "guide for newcomers" button on the sidebar that displays links to both reading and writing guides, as well as a guide on how to join the site, which i know you read because you're here. though i agree that we can have a more visible option on the home page (something we are working on, by the way!), the newcomers guide on the sidebar appears in every page on the site so i dont know if its hard to miss?
I really had to click and test every single one just to find out what they did? Very unprofessional and user-unfriendly. No guide on that I presume, huh?
again, we have a wiki syntax guide not only linked in the writing guide link on the page for newcomers which is linked on the sidebar, but also on the top bar under the "resources" guide. not only that, but every time you edit a page or even post a comment, there is a little text that appears on the bottom left section called "Help: Wiki text quick reference" that links to the official guide on how to use wikidot syntax.
Once I finished everything up and posted it (on top of also having to figure out how to remove the ACCESS DENIED on the SCP list, which was not explained anywhere how to do by the way, just that you should do it), I excitedly watched as my post began having downvotes flooding in
this is all covered on the "how to write an scp" guide, which, again, is linked from in the guide to writing on the sidebar. also, if youre going to post an scp (or anything, really), it is highly recommended that you seek critique and feedback on it first. this is also covered in the writing guide.
Why am I being downvoted so much? Can I get feedback? Why do we only need 10 VOTES TO DELETE AN SCP? HELLO?
as is also covered on the "how to write" guide, authors are expected to get feedback before posting. no one is required to explain their vote, be it positive or negative.
im going to stop here because most of this can really be condensed into "you didnt bother reading the guides", which are there, and are relatively easily accessible, though again, they could do with increased visibility.
i also wanted to address the whole "standards" thing. everyone's standards are different, and there's no accounting for tastes. there are articles that i think are objectively terrible that have multiple hundreds of upvotes, but people are free to disagree with me. you may not like "i am at the center of everything that happens to me" but obviously thousands of other people disagree, and thats fine.
User response:
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-5797485/complaints-thread#post-7156744
I don't think you read what I wrote at the top. I said it shouldn't be on a drop-down menu. If you are new to the site, it should be front and center or even suggested to you through Wikidot mail. Yes, I know it is in the drop-down menu on the top left, but why are we settling for substandard presentation when it really wouldn't take long or much effort to improve it?
To address the second half, am I the only one who thinks it would be intelligent to sort the apparent help of what the writing tools do into a "writing tools" section, and not just dumped somewhere in the bloated writing section as a whole? It's inconsiderate and unrealistic to expect everyone to retain every piece of information they read in an article that is obscenely long. As for the help on the side during an edit, I didn't even see that, so while yes, that was on me, it's a shame it isn't…bigger? Seems rather important.
For the third, no, no and no, how to edit the ACCESS DENIED is NOT written in the writing guide. I triple checked when I got confused how to remove it, and only learned how to do so by scrolling to the bottom of the page to see edit, which I assumed maybe that was it? So you are straight-up lying on that one.
Lastly, yes, artists are expected to get feedback before posting. Now, bear with me here…when it gets posted after getting a lot of positive feedback in drafts, and then starts getting heavily downvoted with no critique or feedback…what is one to do? What is the issue? Should I return it to drafts again, only for it to receive positive feedback and then repost to get deleted yet again? Maybe you don't think downvotes need a reason to be given, but that's just you, and if I may just say, that is a dangerous, close-minded and arrogant idea. Sounds like people just want to be able to delete the work of others without putting any thought into it.
You know what's the most ironic and funny thing about all this by the way? I went to an SCP post made by YOU, specifically uh oh stinky (Really? Are we five?), and when I posted a valid critique about it, I got a administrative response telling me not to be mean to other's posts without any constructive criticism. Hilarious considering no one here even gives any themselves. That wasn't a joke SCP as apparent by the lack of a J, so for you to say you think some works here can be pretty bad while being the creator of one such as that is very hypocritical.
Your SCP is not interesting, it wasn't well thought-out —- AND someone even AGREED WITH ME TOO, and it wasn't original according to other comments and my own opinion. A guy who stinks, really? Really? Move it to joke SCP's at least, please. Now if I get more administrative action taken upon me for this, let it show that if anyone opposes site authority for their own flaws, they will get mad and abuse their power.
If anything else, you guys are at least pretty level-headed and respectful even during complaints like mine, and that's commendable, but it's just frustrating how hypocritical, confusing, nonsensical and ridiculous these fairy-tale Mickey Mouse standards are. I am not mad about my SCP being rejected. I couldn't care less about that. I'm mad at the way the site is handled, and at those in charge. It's a shame because I like what this place should be, and I want to be a part of it —- as many others do too, I'm sure.
Edited 8 minutes later to add the following:
In regards to Trout's comment by the way, crit is important I agree, but with the way the site is structured, even if you get positive crit in drafts, nothing at all is stopping it from getting bombed upon posting with no rhyme or reason. It's disheartening and makes seeking positive crit first feel pointless since it's not a guarantee for success. Rework the voting system, it's that easy. I don't know why you guys are so against this, it's honestly weird. If you really wanna keep it so bad, make downvotes have no effect on deletion, and reserve that only for reports. It's such a simple fix that I'm sure everyone would appreciate.
Edited 9 minutes after that to change the following:
I don't think you read what I wrote at the top. I said it shouldn't be on a drop-down menu. If you are new to the site, it should be front and center or even suggested to you through Wikidot mail. Yes, I know it is in the drop-down menu on the top left, but why are we settling for substandard presentation when it really wouldn't take long or much effort to improve it?
to:
Good to hear. It shouldn't be on a drop-down menu. If you are new to the site, it should be front and center or even suggested to you through Wikidot mail. Hopefully that change gets implemented soon.
as well as add:
I wrote this all while I was tired, so if it comes off as hostile, I apologize, but I love this fandom, and seeing something so important to it such as the site be so unfriendly to new users and intimidating is just sad. I know people in this community who are wonderful and amazing, so I know we can be better than this.
Excerpts of note:
You know what's the most ironic and funny thing about all this by the way? I went to an SCP post made by YOU, specifically uh oh stinky (Really? Are we five?), and when I posted a valid critique about it, I got a administrative response telling me not to be mean to other's posts without any constructive criticism. Hilarious considering no one here even gives any themselves. That wasn't a joke SCP as apparent by the lack of a J, so for you to say you think some works here can be pretty bad while being the creator of one such as that is very hypocritical.
Your SCP is not interesting, it wasn't well thought-out —- AND someone even AGREED WITH ME TOO, and it wasn't original according to other comments and my own opinion. A guy who stinks, really? Really? Move it to joke SCP's at least, please. Now if I get more administrative action taken upon me for this, let it show that if anyone opposes site authority for their own flaws, they will get mad and abuse their power.
If anything else, you guys are at least pretty level-headed and respectful even during complaints like mine, and that's commendable, but it's just frustrating how hypocritical, confusing, nonsensical and ridiculous these fairy-tale Mickey Mouse standards are. I am not mad about my SCP being rejected. I couldn't care less about that. I'm mad at the way the site is handled, and at those in charge. It's a shame because I like what this place should be, and I want to be a part of it —- as many others do too, I'm sure.
Rework the voting system, it's that easy. I don't know why you guys are so against this, it's honestly weird. If you really wanna keep it so bad, make downvotes have no effect on deletion, and reserve that only for reports. It's such a simple fix that I'm sure everyone would appreciate.
(Continuing comment porting, final portion.)
About half an hour following the user's prior post in the Complaints Thread, and after receiving another comment from a community member, the user responded:
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-5797485/complaints-thread#post-7156785
It's inconsiderate and unrealistic to expect everyone to retain every piece of information they read in an article that is obscenely long.
The essay hub materials are meant to be taken with a grain of salt. I mean, they ARE very useful, but they are really there for people who prefer to learn by reading. In all honesty, people learn with experience. The essay is more like a manual by my lights.
For the third, no, no and no, how to edit the ACCESS DENIED is NOT written in the writing guide.
It is in this guide in the publications tab:
"First, go back to the main list. Scroll to the bottom and click edit, then find your SCP number and give it a title - for the example shown in the images, we are placing our SCP into the SCP-7204 slot and using "My SCP Title" as the placeholder title. The before and after of this process is show in the images. For SCP titles, some users opt for complex word games or references, while others stick with a simple description. "
heavily downvoted with no critique or feedback…what is one to do?
Critters are only a small portion of the entire wiki userbase. Critter's opinions are 1% of everyone elses, some of the times. Newer authors are judged more strignantly, imo, due to the common coldposting.
dangerous, close-minded and arrogant idea.
Reviewers are not obliged to give their reasons on voting, but it is courteous to do so. Key word: NOT obliged.
Hilarious considering no one here even gives any themselves.
This is not true. I've seen many many people give very constructive crit on peoples works when required to. If the work is from an established author, there is probably no reason to.
Your SCP is not interesting, it wasn't well thought-out (…)
I reluctantly agree with you, but how you worded your comment on Nico's article wasn't the best way to voice your opinions.
Like Nico and Trout said, A lot of your issues can be solved by taking your idea through the crit process.
Still, if your article does fall into the deletion range (-10 or below), as explained in the Deletions Guide, don’t get too demoralised. While harsh feedback can be difficult to hear (even if that feedback is a simple as clicking the "-1" button), it's an important part of improving as a writer. Don't take people's dislike of the article as a judgement of you personally - nobody is born a great writer, and it is always possible to improve if you're willing to try again. Take the time to read the comments, and keep them in mind for your next attempt."
From the Publication tab from this guide ^^^
https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-5797485/complaints-thread#post-7156833
It was an edit to my previous post, so I don't know if anyone saw it, but I apologize for being hostile. It is 6 am over here and I haven't slept yet.
When it comes to newer writers being judged more harshly…is this…not a problem? This is okay as it is? I hope not. Also I have no idea what you were talking about with critters or their opinions.
I am sorry to Nico, but I won't be removing or editing the critique. It's how I felt, and still do. Nico has been reasonable and professional, so I don't hold any personal malice towards them, but their work on that SCP was abysmal.
I thank everyone for their time, courtesy and quick responses, but all I ask is maybe consider reworking deletion? I know I wasn't the first person to make a scene like this, and I know I won't be the last. As it currently stands right now, the system is absolutely horrible, unfair, creatively murderous, and scares off potential and upcoming writers. It's too hostile and oppressive.
Just keep votes, and tie deletion to reports. Since standards are up to interpretation, let ideas flourish and welcome newcomers of the fandom. Not smash them over the head with harsh words and rejection harder than a college professor critiquing a student's essay. We're here to innovate, not role-play a school grading system.
Noting that user submitted the following appeal:
I'd like to make an appeal regarding my recent ban.
As I understand, Rule 0 is about keeping civil and mature. With that being the case, I feel as though I may have been banned unfairly. I will elaborate as to how.
To begin, I had posted a new SCP without going through drafts first, which as I now know is what you would call coldposting. I was not aware this was a term, nor did I realize how important it was to get reception from drafts first, which is all on me, and I accept my SCP's deletion as a result from not considering performing these necessary steps. I should have paid more attention to the guides.
Upon my SCP's deletion, I did indeed become a little passionate, but it was not fueled by anger of rejection. That doesn't bother me in the slightest that it was removed. I was bothered by how I was told the site upheld very vague and cherry-picked standards, and how removal worked on a voting system, which while I suppose I will just acknowledge it for what it is, I still firmly believe it to be heavily flawed, and my mind cannot be changed on that.
Once the SCP was deleted, I viewed an administrator's list of own works to see how our works differed as a mean for self-feedback, as I did not receive any myself otherwise. Again, I know that's what drafts are for, but I am new, so apologies. They had a few good posts, but one stood out as very —- well…poor, to put it professionally. Believing criticism to be welcomed, I had posted my thoughts on the SCP, which were how I was very amazed at how an SCP such as that could be considered good enough to stay, while the works of others were not. Simply by reading the article yourself, you will clearly see that I am not the only one to have these thoughts as well. There were others saying it wasn't very well thought out either with no further elaboration. Also, this was not lashing out at the admin initiating my deletion, nor was it revenge. They were simply the first name I saw on my comments list, and as such, I chose them to look at. Nothing more to it.
Would you call it constructive? Maybe not in hindsight, but it was anything but a violation of rules. It was a valid opinion on a less-than-optimal piece of work. I have seen far more rude, empty and straight-up close to harassment comments from other users that have gone unchecked compared to my comment, which was left up for a while, leaving me to believe that if that was the reason for my ban, it seems very convenient that now was the time to take action for it, and not earlier. However, even with that in mind, I will refrain from leaving any more negative feedback on SCP's, and instead only post either positive comments, or none at all. I believe that would be best for everyone from here on.
Lastly, I then went to the complaints forum to…post a complaint. Was that wrong of me? It wasn't an attack on anyone, nor was it baseless slander or random rage. I was making points on issues I believed the site had, as well as discussing the way deletion works. Those that replied to me were actually quite kind, respectful and nice to speak to, which helped me to reel my feelings back. At no point during our conversations with any one of those administrators were insults hurled, personal attacks made, or anything else of the sort. We were all having a discussion, and as such, I do not know why I have been banned, leaving me feeling as if it was a heat-of-the-moment action in part to stop me from continuing my discussions any further with the community.
As I have said, I will no longer leave my thoughts on the works of others unless it is positive, and if I have any further complaints, I will simply keep them to myself as I can clearly see it is not welcomed, which feels toxic and unfair. If allowed for an appeal, I will consider working with the community to work on my own SCP and see about having it reworked in some fashion for it to be posted once more, but I cannot do that while unfairly banned.
To anyone who I may have offended, I do apologize, and I will not intend to do so again. But to ban me for my first impression of this site is a bit of an overreaction, especially when I kept my cool and did not attack or insult anyone. If I could be considered approved for the appeal, I would very much appreciate it, and I thank you for your time.
Also, I have received lots of positive support from the community during all of these events, to which I am glad to see how kind everyone can be. Thus, I hope you do consider an appeal.
Staff consensus was to decline the appeal. Some comments from the discussion:
Ari, Zoobeeny, Kufat, myself, and Harry voting to decline.
pr0m will send/has sent the PM with the appeal result. Ban remains in place.
