9Kcon security discussion

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[DISCUSSION] 9Kcon security discussion

psychicprogrammer 30 Jul 2025 11:58

04 mirror: https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-17173541/discussion-9kcon-security-discussion

Historically we have had two Kcons where there was large scale vote manipulation, namely 8kcon and 6kcon. As far as we can tell these only happen in cases where there are two or more entries that are numerically close and tend to be driven by the semi onsite fanbase. As such we propose obfuscating voting as much as possible.

Now our proposal for this is a multi step plan:

1: All entries in 9Kcon will be under a special 9000: category with CSS to hide the score of articles
2: We remove 9000 entries from top rated by month and other top rated pages
3: The exception is lowest rated pages to allow for normal deletions, articles under -10 will be moved to the default category for vote inspection
4: A formal ban any use of listpages on author pages or work benches for identifying contest votes
5: Crom has been set such that any 9000 entry will not show its score and the 9000 tag has been blocked from list (SCPPER will not need any changes as it does not display non _default pages)

This should solve the problem of malicious votes by denying the opportunity to identify close races.

Additionally there are two other things we would like to add to aid in discoverability:

1: Somewhere on the front page we have a link to a random SCP entry
2: At the end of each 9K entry we require a link to another random entry via listpages, we put this into a div to make it clear it is not part of entry.

This discussion will go on for one week

Last edited on 30 Jul 2025 12:00 by psychicprogrammer Show more

Re: 9Kcon security discussion

PlaguePJP 30 Jul 2025 12:07

1: All entries in 9Kcon will be under a special 9000: category with CSS to hide the score of articles

I’m not at all a fan of this. This is a measure that doesn’t solve any issues and only serves to make more work for everyone involved in the contest.

As a “victim” of the SCP-8000 contest controversy, I outright oppose this specific solution. If this were implemented for 8kcon, it likely would’ve made my experience worse. It’s incredibly important that there is some metric for authors to see how their articles are performing. It sets expectations, and will prevent people from getting extremely stressed out like I did.

A lot of these solutions focus more on punitive measures rather than creating an environment where the authors feel supported, the readers can enjoy the content, and staff can mediate. Instead, this sets up a system where authors will be left unclear on their positions, leading to potential stress and confusion. Authors will find ways to view their scores, but if that’s found out, they’ll be punished.

Expecting users to go a month to a month and a half without knowing where they rank is absolutely unacceptable.

There’s also the possibility that, without being able to see upvotes as a vague metric of quality, offsite readers only read articles written by authors they know produce writing they enjoy. We saw with ClassicCon that the site can rally around two newer or lesser known authors and the vote count allows everyone a way to show support. Removing it removes an active socialization tool, and may push readers to stay confined in what they know rather than exploring the plethora of writing Kcons produce.

I think pushing for less room for malicious actions is good, however, this is not the solution. It only obfuscates the issue and pretends is doesn’t exist, rather than tackling it as the source.

I support the banning of leaderboards on author pages and the removal of the CROM list ranking.

ETA: I don't think the removal of leaderboards, the removal of the CROM list, or banning the entries from the Top of the Month does anything to meaningfully solve the issue of malicious voting as well. After some thinking, I don't support any part of this proposal.

Last edited on 31 Jul 2025 02:16 by PlaguePJP Show more

Re: 9Kcon security discussion

DianaBerry 30 Jul 2025 12:10

I think hiding it from Cromm could possibly help. I agree with plauge that i don't think hiding the score would help.

Re: 9Kcon security discussion

Yossipossi 30 Jul 2025 12:53

I am against proposal 1, but I am in favor of the rest.

Re: 9Kcon security discussion

DrBleep 30 Jul 2025 13:11

In favor of everything but #1.

Re: 9Kcon security discussion

Guaire 30 Jul 2025 13:56

If 1# had been tested before i would consider it, but as of rn i share the same concerns as plague.

The other points i agree.

But as was discussed in previous threads, one of the most sure ways to prevent another 8kcon incident is to close applications for the duration of the kcon, wether you like that or not.

Re: 9Kcon security discussion

sailorenoch 30 Jul 2025 14:36

In favor of everything except 1 and 4, as I believe those would make the contest alot less fun for everyone involved. I'm also unsure if these would solve any issues and may just demotivate participation/audience excitement.

Re: 9Kcon security discussion

Uncle Nicolini 30 Jul 2025 15:35

for those saying "no to 1" you are also saying "no to 5" by extension unless we go out of our way to inconvenience fiftynine, creator of scpper, which i do not think we should do. it is a free service that is run at a loss to them, and the last thing i feel we should do is bother them to change something for our sake.

as for my thoughts on 1, i dont think it would be good for the collective mental health of the site to have the rating of your article effectively be in limbo for a month and a half. without naming names, two users who were in the top running of the contest were effectively breaking down daily because of the uncertainty caused by the brigades, closeness of votes, and incoming adjustments. now imagine everyone thinking they are both winning and losing simultaneously, collectively, on a mass scale. this is a recipe for disaster.

Re: 9Kcon security discussion

psychicprogrammer 30 Jul 2025 16:22

We keep 5 while dropping hiding the votecount by keeping the category (which can include the nav thing we want to add).

Re: 9Kcon security discussion

Pedagon 30 Jul 2025 16:25

Just porting what I said in staffchat here:
Personally I think this is fun for the sake of being fun and is, as a result, worth trying in some way. I personally do think hiding the scores from everyone is fun and I’d like to see it even if just to add a bit of gimmick to the kcons since we have been doing more gimmicks like this recently and I think kcons are a good place for this specific one. I do, however, think rhe ban on listpages on authorpages I think is dumb because knowing the winners is part of the community hyping up each other. Like, there is a whole vibe to people being like “this one is so underrated” that you don’t get it you have no way at all to know how rated it even is. Knowing where everyone is currently placing is part of the excitement and fun of kcons. For non-authors/readers, it’s a huge community thing to hype up the underdogs, cheer for articles you consider underrated, and hope your favourite places well. All of which can be retained via keeping leaderboards without displaying vote counts. In my experience, the vote manipulation comes in when articles are close and people want to edge theirs over just a little bit so they get all their friends to bump. But if you just don’t know by how much an article is winning/losing by, you either don’t even bother or you go so over the top that the manipulation is obvious. Plus, if the issue is just that people think it gives a boost to whoever is the one who adds the list to their author page first then the solution is to have us put the list on the contest page ourselves rather than adding more rules for users to keep up with

Plus, people will complain and break down whether they can or cannot see votes. So I personally think hiding the vote numbers is fun and worth giving a shot. Ideally it should have been done on a previous, lower stakes contest, but thats not how time works

Re: 9Kcon security discussion

AriadnesThread 30 Jul 2025 22:26

I think at this point, it is clear that the visible votes change (which I recognize was not done with this intention at all!) would cause more stress and problems than solutions for the userbase as a whole, and ultimately the time to test out this method is absolutely not a kcon. Speaking only as a sort of custodian of the spaces that people discuss their works, the stress that is already so intense for competitors would be compounded by that level of uncertainty as well as the likely underground methods to try and get around the opacity causing another wrinkle that would ultimately end up in disciplinary action. I understand fully the reasoning for the proposal, but I simply can't endorse it either as staff or a writer.

I do agree with Dagon though that a 'hide-a-vote' contest would be really interesting as a stand alone! I think doing that as a contest next year as a much better idea, to get an idea of the challenges of running something like that in a far less high-stakes environment. Much like Classic-con, I really do think we might see some real upticks in posting, as well as a sort of excitement we're not used to that could energize the writing base. Just again, not as a kcon.

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