[DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

Summary:

Second discussion of genre tags for SCPs and GOI Formats

[DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

ParallelPotatoes 08 May 2024 22:37

Previous Discussion Post: https://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-16776349/discussion-scp-genre-tags

O4 Mirror: https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-16807896/discussion-scp-and-goi-format-genre-tags-part-2

The purpose of this discussion post is to continue the discussion of adding genre tags to SCPs and GOI formats. In the previous discussion post, a few issues with adding them were brought up, as well as a few potential solutions. A summary of the potential issues and proposed solutions mentioned in the previous O5 and O4 posts are listed below.

Issue: Tag team will likely never have the ability to tag all articles due to sheer volume and mod tools locks on Series 1&2.
Proposed Solutions:

1. Only have tag team focus on newly posted articles. Even a few articles with genre tags would be a huge navigational benefit over no articles having genre tags. Series 1&2 are already the most discoverable articles, and new articles will benefit more from the additional discovery. This would also put minimal strain on tagging team.
2. Allow authors to self-tag their own articles with genre tags. This will likely result in many articles being genre tagged even without tag team’s input, especially if an incentive structure is put into place.
3. While not a solution, it has been mentioned that waiting to revisit adding genre tags to SCPs will only result in this issue getting worse down the road.

Issue: Tales are still not done being tagged
Proposed Solutions:

1. Tag team can wait to start putting effort into older SCP and GOI tags until tales are done, while still tagging new scp and goi articles. This way the backlog wouldn’t be as big of an issue once tales are done.

Issue: Some of the genre, setting, and style tags do not apply to SCPs
Proposed Solutions:

1. Apply the genre and setting tags to all articles, while using style tags only for GOI format and tales. (Terms as shown on master tag list.)
2. In instances where no genre and theme tags apply, the _genreless tag can be applied.

Issue: Some articles might exceed wikidot’s tag limit
Proposed Solutions:

1. Create a tag priority system for what tags can be left off if there isn’t space.

Issue: International branches that mimic EN’s tagging system might struggle to keep up
Proposed Solutions:

1. Those branches could determine on their own whether they want to include genre tags for SCPs and GOI formats
2. EN can provide updates to EN tag lists to international branches

Issue: May create an atmosphere where readers tend to read what they like rather than like what they read. This might encourage certain authors to write one genre to cater to reader preferences and build information cocoons.
Proposed Solutions:

1. No solutions proposed.

The goal of this second discussion is to continue to bring up potential issues and hammer out solutions for them. If you think the proposed solutions are acceptable/unacceptable please say so and why. If anyone has additional issues or solutions please mention them below.

Last edited on 08 May 2024 22:37 by ParallelPotatoes Show more

Re: [DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

syuzhet 09 May 2024 17:57

Hello.

I support this proposal, still. I would also like to address some of the potential issues you have raised.

Issue: Some articles might exceed wikidot’s tag limit

In the few cases where this is applicable, I would suggest replacing some of the article's attribute tags with genre tags.

Issue: International branches that mimic EN’s tagging system might struggle to keep up

This seems like a concern best left to the discretion of the branches themselves. It shouldn't impact our decision.

Issue: May create an atmosphere where readers tend to read what they like rather than like what they read. This might encourage certain authors to write one genre to cater to reader preferences and build information cocoons.

This is not an issue, because this describes normal human behavior that spans all venues of writing. The purpose of tags is to allow readers to self-filter for works they like.

Goodbye.

Re: [DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

ParallelPotatoes 09 May 2024 18:47

I may edit this later to include more content as the discussion goes on, but I would like to mention that I am in support of all the proposed solutions.

An incentive structure was mentioned for getting users to tag their own articles. I believe that creating such a structure would also assist in applying the already implemented tale tags.

In terms of the “tag priority solution” for articles that reach the tag max, I firmly believe that attribute tags should be lowest priority, as they provide the least staff benefit and least navigational benefit for readers.

I also believe that it should be up to the other branches as to whether they use the genre tags. While we can be accommodating, I do not believe that it should influence EN’s final decision on whether to use genre tags.

Additionally, while I included the final issue as a concern brought up in the previous discussion thread, I personally do not believe it is one that needs to be resolved. As readers, a very few amount of people want to spend the time or effort to read every article. Due to the need to pick and choose articles to read, I believe that increasing the ability for readers to ignore articles in genres they dislike will save reader’s time and be an overall benefit rather than a detriment.

Re: [DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

Jerden 10 May 2024 07:52

I feel like the primary incentive to add genre tags will be to aid discoverability, I am not sure exactly how it would work but there would definitely be ways for us to use genre tags to specifically highlight particular SCPs. There's a bit of a tradeoff - if very few SCPs have genre tags, they're very discoverable via the tag, but readers are less likely to be using the tag if only a few results come up.

Regardless, there is evidently enough interest in genre tags that some SCPs and GoI formats will receive them. I think it's reasonable to prioritise tales for now, but if someone is motivated to tag their favourite SCPs with the correct genre, there's no reason not to allow it. I'm sure many authors would be happy to do it as they go, or even go back through their previous work to add the appropriate tags.

Restricting Style tags to Tales makes the most sense - it's not particularly notable for an SCP to contain no dialogue. Exactly which genre tags should apply to a work is always going to be a bit subjective, but I don't think it's any more difficult for SCPs than Tales.

We can quite easily revise the current guide into a more general genre tagging guide to explain how it works.

Last edited on 10 May 2024 08:03 by Jerden Show more

Re: [DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

EstrellaYoshte 11 May 2024 18:08

I support adding genre tags to goi-format, given that its the one left without significant discoverability revamp. As for SCP, I support in principle, but it's not as high a priority as the other ones. Given available manpower Id suggest open both up for genre tagging, but SCPs as optional/user-added for now, and focus more on goi-format.

In instances where no genre and theme tags apply, the _genreless tag can be applied.

Not sure how I feel about this, given it would be applicable to a large plurality, if not majority, of SCPs.

Issue: Some articles might exceed wikidot’s tag limit

This isn't as big an issue as it appears, those that do are typically outliers. That said, my preferred staging priority is Top Level > Major Page/Translation > Event > Content Marker > Groups/Series/Canon/Character/Location > Genre&Theme > Object Class > Attributes

Re: [DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

ParallelPotatoes 13 May 2024 00:56

The way I see it, the main function of the _genreless tag is to differentiate between articles that have been decided where no genre tags apply vs. simply havent been looked at for tagging purposes. The number of SCPs that would receive this tag does not affect this purpose. I dont see the majority of SCPs needing to receive the tag as a detriment, as many modern SCPs have narratives and could conceivably be put into one of the existing genres.

Re: [DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

FlyPurgatorio 12 May 2024 13:47

I took a while to respond to this proposal because I kept going back and forth on this. Mostly because of the increased workload and the fact that I don't always trust genre to be as clear-cut with SCPs as it often is with tales.

I also fear the tag bloat. In this case I'd go as far as suggesting a simplified genre list for SCPs even:

• Horror [this combines all horror tags we use]
• Comedy (including black comedy)
• Science-Fiction
• Fantasy
• Mystery
• Weird-fiction [this combines absurdism and surrealism]
• Political-fiction [this combines spy, military and general political pieces]
• Everyday [includes romance, slice-of-life, but also everyday objects being odd]
• Action [this includes adventure, chase, exploration, and a set of crime and military fiction]
• LGBT

This is just a quick high-over and definitely not a definitive proposal, but if we're doing this, I'd prefer a slightly simplified list of the available genre tags primed for SCPs and listed in that overview. Both for tag bloat, simplicity for authors, and since I don't see much of a win to have different kinds of horror tagged on SCPs. You just gotta know whether it's a horror piece or a fantasy one, right?

I support adding taletags in general for GoI formats as if they're tales, btw.

Re: [DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

ParallelPotatoes 13 May 2024 01:01

Personally I worry that creating a completely separate list of tale genre tags and SCP genre tags to add a layer of "complexity bloat". Taggers will need to think to themselves "wait, is this tag for SCPs or tales only" and I fear that it would cause mishaps.

For the argument of genre not being clear cut, its also entirely possible for a tale to be posted where the genre isn't clear cut. The process would be the same for SCPs as for tales: the tagger would use their best judgement to determine which tags are appropriate.

Additionally, could you elaborate on why you think having different kinds of horror is a benefit for tales but wouldn't be for SCPs? Its entirely reasonable for a psychological horror (or other horror) SCP to be posted from my point of view, and I'm not sure why the simplification would benefit SCPs but not tales. I'm similarly confused about the other tags you combined or removed in the simplification list.

Last edited on 13 May 2024 01:10 by ParallelPotatoes Show more

Re: [DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

FlyPurgatorio 13 May 2024 12:46

The reason I bring up the suggestion of simplification is because the Tale tags were designed with tales in mind. Several tale tags feel odd to add to an SCP in general, since it doesn't feel like it covers the areas someone might search for in SCPs.

So if we're doing this, I wouldn't mind considering genre tags that fit a little more with how narratives in SCPs are told.

For the argument of genre not being clear cut, its also entirely possible for a tale to be posted where the genre isn't clear cut.

I wasn't arguing this, I was arguing that the tale tags are easier to apply to tales where they were designed for. And as for Taggers being confused, that happens already. We have a lot of tags, it's why we have a workbench with a check system in place.

Additionally, could you elaborate on why you think having different kinds of horror is a benefit for tales but wouldn't be for SCPs?

Tales only have one way to be discovered through tags: these genre tags. That's all, so we made them hyper specific to allow for as much specific searches, which isn't really necessary for SCPs. You can search on attributes and series entries too, as well as mainlisters just getting the most coverage in general.

I'm trying to look at this from the searcher's perspective, not from a labelling system perspective. If I were in the mood to read a specific genre of SCP, I probably will have enough when I search "horror" (or even better, exclude horror!) rather than specifying what kind of horror.

Most of the tags I suggested (mind you, just to illustrate my point) are mainly the same ones as for Tales, but more high-over genres rather than super specific genres. I would still suggest wondering which ones are going to be relevant for SCPs. Have a couple of SCP only genres seems not out of the ordinary, since we're already discussing excluding style tags too. We'd have to revamp the list anyway so this proposal is going to add complexity bloat either way.

I hope that clears up some of your confusion.

Last edited on 13 May 2024 12:47 by FlyPurgatorio Show more

Re: [DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

ParallelPotatoes 13 May 2024 15:27

After reading your post I’m more amenable to a simplified list. I’m still worried there will be confusion as to whether a tag is for SCPs or tales, but as long as the difference is made clear on the master tag list then it should be okay. I think overall a smaller tag list would reduce workload and strain on taggers. I don’t know enough about genres to comment on which tags should be cut, so I’ll support whatever list is put forth.

Re: [DISCUSSION] SCP and GOI Format Genre Tags Part 2

Ethagon 14 May 2024 08:34

I think this makes sense overall, though I would be explicitly against putting horror under one umbrella. It's one tag that I think will likely see a lot of usecase both for the tag itself and the subtags. The horror genres still require the horror tag so anyone searching for horror can do so, as can someone who is just searching for cosmic or body horror.