[DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

Summary:

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[DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

EstrellaYoshte 24 Jul 2023 16:09

This is an update proposal for the (as of writing, 7) Tales by Series pages.

Mockup of Series 3 Tales: https://scp-sandbox-3.wikidot.com/scp-series-3-tales-edition
Associated fragment: https://scp-sandbox-3.wikidot.com/fragment:scp-series-tales-links

Proposed changes:

• Converted the top info part into a generic fragment for ease-of-editing, to be included on the pages
• Match aesthetics closer to the Series pages
• Bolded SCP links
• Removed all SCP links that does not already have an associated tale

Notes

I believe the setup of having all thousand SCPs mirrored from the main list is a holdover from when there was only that many set in stone. This currently leaves large swaths of SCPs without tales navigationally null (there's an argument that they encourage users to fill in with their own tales, but I'm pensive on that).

Pros: easier to navigate and parse, reduce occurrences of changes to SCP list not reflected in the Tales page
Con: additional burden onto users to add the SCP themselves if not already present

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The discussion will last for 7 days, after which the described items will be implemented unless serious concerns are raised. In the event of negative or split opinions on a proposed items, it will not be implemented.

Mainsite Mirror: https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/forum/t-16187965/discussion-navigation-tales-by-series-update-2023-7-24

Last edited on 25 Jul 2023 03:19 by EstrellaYoshte Show more

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

RosySaturniidae 24 Jul 2023 16:26

Full support.

I feel like there's 2 kinds of people who use the Tales by SCP (using that name instead of Series to alleviate my own confusion), people using the page just to browse for tales, and people using it to see if there's any tales to do with a specific SCP theyre interested. I could, of course, be wrong here, but I think that's a sound assumption.

Removing the massive bulk of SCP articles that don't have tales associated with them would greatly help the former and be, at most, a neutral change for the latter. Someone looking through just to browse would no longer have to more or less glaze their eyes over the significant amount of empty entries and potentially miss actual tales. Meanwhile, someone looking for a specific SCP would, I think, likely hit ctrl+f in order to find it, and even if that nets zero results, their curiosity will have been satisfied.

The only listed negative, I feel, could be alleviated by simply adding instructions to the page on how to add/edit entries onto the list.

Regarding the fragment, as it's only use is for staff, the ease of editing i only see as a positive.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

AriadnesThread 29 Jul 2023 19:13

I support this for similar reasons, as this is the way that I've used the Tales by Series navigation as well.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

LORDXVNV 24 Jul 2023 16:29

In support

I'm not convinced the listed con is actually that much a con, a little more effort on the user end to edit a list is significantly less than the effort it takes to write a tale

That said I guess one downside would be making it less obvious at a glance which scps don't have tales if someone were to want to rectify that but like
For me that's a hypothetical, something I'd maybe like to do at some point in the future, possibly
And like I've always been too busy to actually do that because I find other stuff to do
So I'd only take that concern into account if someone says they've actually done it as opposed to claiming that one day they were hoping to
Maybe there's some aesthetic compromise where we could spit out a list of scps with no non-system/wikiwalk backlinks and not have them link back but that might be unnecessary overhead and impossible to automate

Also I think the dos and don't will have to be updated with some language about adding in the scps. Might need to state the obvious ie keep things in numerical order, make sure to crosslink, etc

Last edited on 24 Jul 2023 16:31 by LORDXVNV Show more

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

Mooagain 24 Jul 2023 16:30

This looks so clean, I love it. A few notes/problems to fix though.

"Collaborative Tales (which have their own section)" needs a period after like all the other points on that list.

A few times in the instructions it speaks in first person singular (so I linked to the canon hub), which feels a bit out of place with the way staff pages are set up these days.

The example link in the how to include a page section still references to that old SCPokemon thing that got deleted.

Also the example doesn't match the new format with the bolding, it should be like this:

* **[[[SCP-106]]]** - The Old Man
* [[[The Young Man]]]

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

LORDXVNV 24 Jul 2023 16:33

At the current point in time, SCPokemon still exists

However, to prepare for future changes, I agree with the sentiment that maybe another example should be found.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

EstrellaYoshte 24 Jul 2023 16:34

The bold is done with CSS, so no need for separate markup.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

S D Locke 24 Jul 2023 17:25

Stylistic changes are fine, but I think removing SCPs without a Tale kind of undermines the reason I set these up like this. The Tales by SCP page is explicitly set-up to mirror the mainlist, so cutting out (still perfectly functional) SCP links feels unnecessary.

As others have noted, having entries without Tales can (and has!) inspired the creation of derivative content to show love to an article without any. I’ve no record of old conversations (it’s been a few years since I made these) but I know some users have used it to find SCPs to write for.

Removal kinda feels like it may work *against* that. Not only will these SCPs not have derivative content but they’d so irrelevant they’re not worth inclusion on this page to begin with? It just rubs me the wrong way.

Implementing removal would mean juuuust that extra little bit of work for authors/staff/random volunteers (not to mention small touch-ups from staff to explain how to re-add things properly), and end of the day the only thing it really achieves is making it so potential scrollers have to move their thumb a few times less.

I don’t think a bit of extra scrolling is a horrible burden for readers. In my eyes, It’s not a problem that needs fixing. It’s not perfect — if I’m scrolling through a newer Series with few Tales, I can see how it’d be easy to miss a Tale with how… samey it looks? It might be nice to color text background on Tale links so they stand out in a rapid scroll… or something to that effect.

I know I passed this project off to staff quite some time ago, but for whatever it is worth as the creator of the TBSCP, I would prefer it remains intact with all entries.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

EstrellaYoshte 25 Jul 2023 02:22

Stylistic changes are fine, but I think removing SCPs without a Tale kind of undermines the reason I set these up like this. The Tales by SCP page is explicitly set-up to mirror the mainlist, so cutting out (still perfectly functional) SCP links feels unnecessary.

TBSCP, as a secondary master, is always going to be a little bit behind the main list in terms of updates. It gets to the point that there have been several instances where it contains deleted, renamed or otherwise changed SCPs, which can mislead users. It's not the most frequent occurrences, but often enough where it's somewhat troublesome to try rectifying.

Removal kinda feels like it may work *against* that. Not only will these SCPs not have derivative content but they’d so irrelevant they’re not worth inclusion on this page to begin with? It just rubs me the wrong way.

I feel like this is somewhat backwards. The way I see it, TBSCP (and most other navigation elements) should ideally be descriptive, not prescriptive - It's not because they're irrelevant that I'm removing them from the page, it's because they don't have any associated tales on a page called Tales by Series that they're irrelevant (mechanically speaking). We don't allow authorpage with fewer than 3 works just becuase they might meet that threshold, for example.

Inspiring authors to write for untaled SCPs is a benefit, but it's a minor one that doesn't affect the large majority of casual browsers. If a page's core function is diluted with the secondary aim of matching the mainlist, it ends up doing neither well, in my opinion.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

LORDXVNV 26 Jul 2023 13:51

Even if you don't have logs as hard proof, would you be willing to share either some works or some users who've used it for that process? I think getting the statements of users who've used it for the original intended purpose would be useful in deciding whether it worked enough to keep that purpose or whether it would be more worthwhile to pivot.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

S D Locke 27 Jul 2023 13:30

Even if you don't have logs as hard proof, would you be willing to share either some works or some users who've used it for that process?

If I had any receipts, I would have brought them. A cursory search isn’t giving me anything in terms of someone claiming as much in an authorpost, and I can’t remember 5-year old individual conversations. “Trust me bro” isn’t worth anything, so I’m gonna have to drop that point.

It gets to the point that there have been several instances where it contains deleted, renamed or otherwise changed SCPs, which can mislead users.

This is fair. As you say, it is a secondary function regardless, so it’s not a thing I feel the need to fight tooth and nail for. It’d be nice if name changes could be handled by a bot, but I’m not sure that’s something that can be done.

Additionally, these pages also still have the problem of needing users to maintain them constantly to add tales. I imagine there’s plenty of SCPs across each series that will be removed, but do actually have a tale.

TBSCP has always been an inelegant solution to navigation. If there no way to automate updates, I’m wondering if there’s anything else that could be implemented to circumvent the need for a separate page that needs constant manual updates?

Ethagon floats the idea of a merger, but that comes with issues of leaving all Series pages unlocked in perpetuity (just to start). Tags aren’t tenable either, unless we want 10,000 to manage.

End of the day, TBSCP is trying to solve a navigation issue — but it’s only a half measure. Is there another way this could be handled structurally?

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

EstrellaYoshte 27 Jul 2023 15:44

In a manner of speaking, the problem is threefold: input/association, structural and automation.

Knowing which tales belong under which SCP is dependent on foreknowledge and namedrops - there's no reliable method of associating a tale to another page: backlinks are too indistinct, and parenting isn't enforced, and is limited to one page. Basically, it all has to be manual user inputs.

SCP titles, likewise, exist in a structure that's only readable to human and bots that's programmed to parse it as is (Crom and Helen) so there's no way for Wikidot to reconcile these differences.

I'm unsure if bots are operable/allowed to make edits anymore, but I'm not smart enough to program a heuristics that auto-updates the Tales pages with the correct headings even if we do find a way to solve the first problem (maybe Yossi can, idk)

It's not even a pick 2 of 3 situation, it's more like getting fucked three ways to Sunday on all fronts.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

S D Locke 28 Jul 2023 04:42

Knowing which tales belong under which SCP is dependent on foreknowledge and namedrops - there's no reliable method of associating a tale to another page: backlinks are too indistinct, and parenting isn't enforced, and is limited to one page. Basically, it all has to be manual user inputs.

Perhaps we could consider enforcement? Just, obviously not parenting.

If we made it a requirement for authors to include (hidden in page source, maybe?) reference links to articles theirs is derivative of, we could then automate something based off that? Some kind of uniform format (provided in guides and such) would help with that, yea?

Naturally, there’d be a large backlog at first, but if we could get Images copacetic, I think this could be doable.

It could be argued that we should require something like this, especially to provide attribution for characters borrowed from another author.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

Ethagon 28 Jul 2023 11:59

I think one of the largest issues that make the Tales by Series pages always outdated is that there never is one for the current series. It's a lot easier for both authors and readers to add a tale that's just been posted rather than trying to remember what tales about this series they read a year ago.

Although with the proposed setup here I think the Tales by Series page of the actual series could just be posted together with the new series, given that it's empty and I don't see the situation of an SCP being deleted and already having tales written for it (and on the page) coming up all that often.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

Ethagon 25 Jul 2023 09:53

I think the ideal way to do Tales by SCP (for the tales at least) is to just merge them with the mainlists. That's a bit much to ask for so I think this at least makes the Tales by SCP lists in themself more accessible.

I think that outweighs the downside of potential authors being inspired by some articles not having a tale yet (which isn't really something I've personally ever seen happen in the first place since I've been here)

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

EstrellaYoshte 29 Jul 2023 13:52

Copied from my response to Boogey_Man23.

The core feature of the Tales by SCP pages should, ideally, be listing tales associated with SCP entries, and in an accessible, straightforward manner.

The current setup list all the SCPs, including the vast majority of those that do not have tales - a very uneconomical use of cognitive bandwidth as well being antithetical to the effective function of the page.

This raises both mental and physical cost of interaction (in both actually parsing the sea of links for relevant entries, and physically scrolling to whichever destination), not-insignificantly impacting user experience.

Consider the three potential demographics of users of TBSCP, being casual browsers, readers looking for tales under specific SCPs, and authors looking to write for obscure entries, we're more or less raising the cost of interactions to serve a very specific subset of users who already have the highest bandwidth for these things, while the rest would still be sufficiently served by the absence of SCP links just as much as the presence thereof.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

ParallelPotatoes 29 Jul 2023 18:46

I like this new version, especially how it removes links to SCPs without associated tales. I see the goal of this page as primarily a way to find new tales. By removing SCPs without tales, it makes it so that theres less scrolling involved for a user that is looking for tales.

Re: [DISCUSSION] Navigation - Tales by Series Update 2023/7/24

Felixou 30 Jul 2023 23:49

The top info change is much needed, the current one is just not that great.

As for the removal of SCPs without tale, I do think that most recent series will feel way emptier. With, for example, Series VII having (by my guess) at least 5 tales by 100s on average. It's not really an issue, more of a does-it-gonna-look-good question since only Series 3 is shown here, which has a large number of tales.

However, I prefer this idea since if we are to keep both an SCP series and a Tale SCP series, the use of putting all SCPs in both is just silly to me.

In favour of this new version.

Although, I have to ask, how would the CSS bolded SCP links work with the Joke SCPs Tales Edition? Since a lot of those links are for pointing out what the joke article is parodying, wouldn't that mess up with other SCP articles which are actually related to the work? I feel like there should be a more clear distinction between the two. misunderstood the bolded SCP links.

Last edited on 31 Jul 2023 11:40 by Felixou Show more