Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Summary:

On spellings and context

Request: Kiev to Kyiv

LadyKatie 22 Apr 2022 04:20

Today I received a request from the representative of the Ukrainian branch regarding the spelling of Kyiv/Kiev. Kyiv is the official Romanized spelling from the Ukrainian language (as the name is derived from the name of the legendary founder of the city, Kyi), and is used by the Ukrainian government and is the one used by a number of governments, pretty much all major news outlets, and a hefty chunk of international airports.

Before somebody else says it yes there is an absolute fuckton of political context involving Ukrainian national identity and Russian holdovers. However as this is the spelling used by most governments I think it's a SPAG issue.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

HarryBlank 22 Apr 2022 09:04

I would support PMing authors to make the change/give permission for the change to be made, and if I had any instances of "Kiev" myself I'd correct them (I don't). If the staff decision is made to do this unilaterally across the board, however, it cannot be termed a spelling/grammar correction. Kiev is not a spelling or grammar mistake, any more than Burma or Formosa would be. This would instead be an editorial intervention by staff; I don't know where I'd stand on that, as it's obviously well-intentioned and progressive but it's also definitely an alteration of the text beyond the level of proofreading. I'd be interested to hear opinions about the pros/cons of that.

SPaG it ain't, though, full stop.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

gee0765 22 Apr 2022 09:53

i agree with hairy hank - this is more significant than a spag change. personally i don't think we should be making it without author permission. that being said im all for asking authors of existing articles and encouraging spelling it Kyiv in any new articles

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Ethagon 24 Apr 2022 09:55

Seconding this.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Jerden 22 Apr 2022 10:17

I feel like the closest parallels are Peking/Beijing - it's a variation in transliteration based on the language used, one was formerly accepted and now an alternative is preferred. I'd use Kyiv if I was conscious of it but Kiev is probably what I'd default to if I wasn't thinking about it, purely because that's what I'm used to reading.

I'm in favor of just leaving this to users, it's a purely symbolic gesture (in the sense that it doesn't have any impact on the real world) and I'd rather not open up a rabbit hole of "to what extent should the SCP wiki staff edit the content of articles to reflect our current political consensus." Obviously this change is minor enough that I wouldn't really care if we went through the wiki to replace every instance of "Kiev" with the "correct" spelling, it's more a principle against this sort of thing.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Rounderhouse 22 Apr 2022 09:03

I'm fine with making this editorial change given current events — but it's not a SPAG issue, and pretending it is while in the same breath acknowledging the fuckton of political context is more than a little ridiculous. There's a dedicated, largely recent movement to push international spelling of it towards Kyiv — this isn't just a matter of fixing typos, because you can't pretend the names are interchangeable any more than you can pretend 'Taiwan' and 'Chinese Taipei' are interchangeable. Names have meaning, and doing this is inarguably a statement. A good statement we should make! But we should actually commit to it instead of making it while undercutting it as "just a SPaG edit".

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

OriTiefling 22 Apr 2022 13:59

I'm with Rounder here. I 100% fully support making this change- but we also cannot pretend it's a SPaG issue. It's going to be an innately political move given the current contexts, and we can't forget that asking this of our authors or doing this manually is innately going to be a political statement in and of itself. I believe it's a statement that we should make, especially after the massive support the community gave towards Corgo recently, but we need to understand what the implications of that move are.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Meserach 22 Apr 2022 09:09

Noting that English Wikipedia, after long, long argument has settled this matter in favour of Kyiv.

If you're a masochist you can read about that decision here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?&diff=978662048]

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Jerden 22 Apr 2022 10:09

I think Wikipedia has editorial standards in a way that we don't - there's a good argument that an encyclopaedia should be consistent and reflect current consensus, less so for a collaborative fiction site.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Meserach 22 Apr 2022 10:18

Sure. Pointing it out purely as a data point.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

torcsandantlers 22 Apr 2022 12:22

I'm really torn on this one. On the one hand, I think the move to Kyiv is a pretty clear cut ethical move for me personally. But I don't know if we should dictate that political stance to authors. We have a lot of political and cultural stances that different articles take. If the culture of the site rejects the Kiev spelling, then let them downvote the works that include it and remove it like we would any other vastly unpopular political takes.

Sorry if my stance isn't super clear, but it's because I feel conflicted between my personal feelings and what I think staff should do.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Jerden 22 Apr 2022 12:54

I think the thing that makes it a little complicated is that it wasn't a political statement until recently - we all just spelled it Kiev, because that was what everyone else did (OK, maybe not everyone, it's not the kind of thing I payed any attention to until this year). So I feel the question is really about what to do with articles from, say, 2017. I say leave it, but if the transliteration you use is now a political statement I can see the argument for changing it. Personally I wouldn't read it that way, I'd probably just think "this was probably written before 2022".

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Meserach 22 Apr 2022 13:13

This raises an additional tricky thing, which is that it will not always be clear when an article was intended to have been "written", in-fiction. I can find at least one instance of the use of "Bombay" to mean Mumbai on wiki, for example, justifiable because that section of the article is meant to be from the 1970s, even though Mumbai is far more widely used over the wiki as a whole (which makes sense given that the name change there was in 1995).

We could try to editorially set a date when the Foundation switched from Kiev to Kyiv, but then any author could simply claim their article was written before that, and for many articles there won't be any information that firmly "dates" the article one way or another.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

EstrellaYoshte 22 Apr 2022 13:45

We can do it like Wikiwalk, make the change and PM the authors, in which they retain the full right to revert. If it's noted to be the "Kiev" romanization due to diegetic historical context, we don't do anything.

Last edited on 22 Apr 2022 13:45 by EstrellaYoshte Show more

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Cerastes 22 Apr 2022 20:19

While I'd use Kyiv from now on in future articles (not that I've written any articles concerning Ukraine, or have any in the works now), I don't think staff has any business whatsoever sending out any messages asking/informing authors to change the spelling, or changing it themselves on the pretense of SPAG or editorial fiat. If authors have the autonomy to use the term amnesiacs instead of amnestics, then we shouldn't have any sort of staff-supported pressure to have them change to the correct spelling of a city, unless we're interested in writing an official SCP style guide for wiki standards. Readers can downvote the usage of Kiev if they want, but I don't think staff should have anything to do with this.

Last edited on 22 Apr 2022 20:22 by Cerastes Show more

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

WhiteGuard 23 Apr 2022 16:22

I fall more in line with Cerastes here. I believe this falls under authorial control. I don't see a lot of reason to do anything further. I understand why the city was renamed and the desire for prior versions to be updated, but that really isn't our call.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

Hexick 23 Apr 2022 20:18

Basically this. It'd be wholesale the right thing for authors to correct the spelling, but it's not something I see staff having control over. In an informal setting it'd be alright to inform the author(s) of such articles of the spelling's context in the case that they're unaware, but staff have no right to pressure users to use one particular spelling over the other.

---

Hexick, SCP Wiki Moderator
Personal site: http://hexhouse.wikidot.com/
Feel free to forward any concerns or inquiries to my Wikidot inbox.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

LORDXVNV 09 May 2022 15:58

I think we've largely agreed on a few things.

• This wouldn't fall under SPaG, it would be a political statement.
• Staff have no right to enforce this change unilaterally.
• People would really like for Kyiv to be used over Kiev but rightfully see no way to enforce the usage.

I think editing is off the table.

Now, my takes:

• There are not much more than 20 articles on the wiki, if that, that use the text string Kiev, and at least 2 of those refer to Kievan Rus.
• I have a perhaps misguided belief that the authors of these works would fully be in favor of using Kyiv over Kiev if they remembered that they'd written "Kiev" in one of their many works. Seriously, some of these people have over 30 pages. At the upper end, that number is nearing 100. It's very unlikely they'd remember on their own that they typed a 4 character word sometime in the past 10 years that is only now becoming politically controversial.
• Most people don't read 05 as a hobby so they're probably not even aware -UA requested this change.
• I personally feel changing Kiev to Kyiv cannot be likened to amnesiacs vs amnestics. Once people start dying it starts to less a style guide issue and more a political one. Staff have taken political stances before in defining the kind of community they want SCP to be.
• That said, I don't think pressuring authors to change Kiev to Kyiv is appropriate, as many have stated. However, informing authors that -UA wants this change, pointing out in which piece they've used Kiev, and stating in the plainest language possible that they are under no obligation to make the change to Kyiv seems like a reasonable middle ground. The big assumptions I'm making here are that the reason they're keeping it Kiev is because they've largely forgotten that they used Kiev at all.
• If even that is too much, I suppose we'll have to formally tell -UA we've decided it's out of our hands but they are welcome to vote/comment on pieces for the use of Kiev instead of Kyiv. Like I assume at some point we're going to have to tell -UA leadership our ultimate decision and our rationale, if they're not watching 05 like hawks.

Re: Request: Kiev to Kyiv

stormbreath 09 May 2022 20:57

According to a Crom Fullsearch, there are 15 articles which use the "Kiev" spelling (there are two more that reference Kievan Rus, which I do not believe is normally updated to Kyivan Rus). Let's go over all of them.

+ show block

1. SCP-2682 — The article is firmly dated in-universe to 2013.
2. SCP-5005 — Several mentions of Kiev, but the article's Kiev is from an alternate universe and there is a vague passing reference that the city of Kiev has remained under Russian control in said universe. Not super clear, but it leans toward remaining Kiev.
3. SCP-1782 — Article has no date. Should likely be updated.
4. [https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp001-kln|SCP-001-KLN]]] — Article is firmly dated to fall 2016, with the world ending in-universe days later. Could maybe be updated.
5. SCP-3145 — One offset quotes SCP-2682. Update contingent on SCP-2682.
6. Golden Horde Blues — Historical mention of Kyiv, dating to the conquest of Genghis Khan. Should definitely be updated.
7. Transcript of telephone conversation, August 9, 1991 — Transcript of a 1991 phone call. At the time, Kiev is a USSR city and the "Kiev" spelling is appropriate.
8. Year Of The Many — Undated reference. Should be updated to Kyiv.
9. Incident 0401-42-III - 'Chornobylska Katastrofa' — Date of tale is unclear, but takes place in the 1980's. As such, Kiev is appropriate.
10. Memory — Set in December 2012. I will note this article is a translation from -RU, and as such that poses a further complication to updating the spelling.
11. SCP-5122 — Undated mention of the city. Should be updated.
12. On the Multiversal Cargo Train — Same universe as SCP-5005. Is specific on the point that this Kiev is from a universe where Ukraine does not exist.
13. It's fine, but it still hurts — Undated reference. Should be updated.
14. Killing In The Name Of — Undated reference. Context clues in canon place the tale around 2019. Should be updated.
15. SCP-6146 — Mention of "Kiev, Ruthenian Republic". It's an alternate universe and I have no idea what's going on here. Really up to the author.

So:

• Two articles which refer to the city under USSR rule. This should not be edited.
• Two articles which refer to an alt history which seems to be intentionally using a different spelling. This should likely not be edited.
• One article with an alt history which might be intentionally using a different spelling. I don't know if this should be edited.
• One article from a Russian perspective in 2012. I don't know if this should be updated.
• One article which makes a historical reference to Kyiv in 1240 CE. This should definitely be updated.
• Five SCPs which reference the city using the old spelling. These are undated or set in the early-mid 2010's. These should likely be edited.
• Three SCPs which reference the city with the old spelling. These are undated or set in the late 2010's. These should also likely be edited.

So, when I break down this list, those last three bullet points are the ones that we should really be discussing here. Those articles represent seven authors. One is AHT permabanned, so we can/should just make the edit ourselves. That leaves six authors to contact, five of whom are still relatively active and we could just reach out to. I think it's better if we just encouraged authors to use the Kyiv spelling, and contacted those five authors to ask them to update their articles. (We could also reach out to Tufto and Aftokrater about their alt histories, but those seem to be intentional decisions.)

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can I get some nice "no signatures on my forum"
sigma-9 css machine broke
understandable have a nice day

Last edited on 09 May 2022 21:26 by stormbreath Show more