Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

Summary:

Hiding the Karma Bar and Pro Account Star on mainsite.

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Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

stormbreath 14 Dec 2020 23:34

Recently, Mann upgraded his Wikidot account from a Pro account to a Pro Plus account. This was to enable https on the main wiki, but it unlocks a few other features that we haven't had access to before. Chiefly among these is disabling the display of Wikidot Karma and Pro Account status star¹. We could toggle these features so that karma and and the Pro account star no longer appear on the main wiki, sandbox or any other site that Mann is a master admin on.²

+ Image of Options

+ Example Images

Combining this option with the following code (incorporated into Sigma-9) will let us hide the Karma Bars and Pro Stars and patch a spacing issue that appears when those elements are disabled:

.printuser img.small {
    padding: 1px 4px 1px 0px;
}
 
#who-rated-page-area .printuser img.small,
#revision-list .printuser img.small {
    background-image: none !important;
}

This option disables the display of Karma in a most places on site, but does not remove it entirely. You'll still be able to see a user's Karma by clicking on their username, as the popup that appears is unchanged.

Karma has been noted as a bad metric on the site, as it only refers to your level of Wikidot activity and not actual SCP Wiki activity. It is ignored for all official purposes and users are also encouraged to ignore it themselves, but new users who are unfamiliar with the site tend to put a lot of weight on the concept.

Given our new ability to disable the display of these features, should we do so? Karma and the Pro Account star are toggled separately, and we could disable one without having to disable the other. Karma will still be tracked and can be found by visiting a user's wikidot profile; it will simply not be displayed on the main wiki.

The current suggestion is to try these features out as a limited test run for a short period of time (most likely one or two months) and then revisit the policy to see if there have been any significant downsides to the change.

This discussion will be open for one week to staff of all levels (including Junior Staff, with captain permission).

Footnotes

1. Example for users unfamiliar with the Pro Star: DrEverettMann. This star appears next to the Karma bar of any user with a Pro or higher account.

2. This does not currently include 05command, but given the need to implement https here as well will likely include it sometime in the future.

---

can I get some nice "no signatures on my forum"
sigma-9 css machine broke
understandable have a nice day

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

pxdnbluesoul 14 Dec 2020 23:43

The fact that we know of a valid proof-of-concept to become a Guru in days with no public contributions, while multiple administrators don't meet the criteria per the formula, speaks to the relative usefulness of it.

Despite that, people are going to be really mad that the pp bar is going away. I'm not bothered enough by that to sway my decision.

The Pro star is literally useless as a barometer for anything at this point and it should go.

Axe both of them.

I have been sufficiently swayed on the karma bar.

Last edited on 16 Dec 2020 17:18 by pxdnbluesoul Show more

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

aismallard 15 Dec 2020 02:11

As much as it pains me to lose guru visibility, this is the correct answer.

Also, the Pro star is entirely useless and, being visually asymmetrical from the other displays, is a nuisance. I would advocate to hide it even if we were keeping karma.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

DrKens 14 Dec 2020 23:58

Get rid of it. IMO there's no real purpose for it.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

UraniumEmpire 15 Dec 2020 00:00

I'm going to miss my guru bar but other than that I can't think of any reason we shouldn't go through with this.

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… and I'm not Robert Frost.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

ProcyonLotor 15 Dec 2020 00:07

Axe it. May it rest in pieces.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

(account deleted) 15 Dec 2020 00:42

Karma and the pro star are both meaningless at best, misleading for the most part, and could be semi-actively used to confuse folks as to who is actually a staffer/longterm user at worst.

Yeet them.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

Nagiros 15 Dec 2020 00:48

Storm suggested I sum up the (scant) opposition to this proposal, so here I am, defending the karma bar. Please note that I'm aware this is a small change and the negative consequences I'm describing would probably be very small to match it.

While hardly a perfect system, karma does offer a rudimentary and general indicator of expertise, especially for newer users who don't recognize the usernames of trustworthy community members. The specific concern centers around the site forums, where we have a notable contingent of newbies offering bad advice (in the interest of helping) who would become indistinguishable from knowledgeable community members. We worry that this will lead to new users receiving bad advice/crit from new users under the assumption that they are veterans, in the absence of a visual indicator for their Wikidot activity.

It has been pointed out that karma is still visible on a user's profile, which I would argue is a level of obfuscation that most new users are unlikely to even know exists.

Frankly I'm very confused about the obsession with possibilities here, instead of discussing how the site actually functions. Guru karma can to achieved maliciously but it rarely is on the wiki, high karma isn't an absolute indicator of expertise but in most cases it is, and there are people who have accidentally attained guru¹ but they're usually, at least, established community members and not randos. I maintain that karma does have a very indirect use on the site and should be preserved.

But like, I'd be down for a trial run, obviously. Like I said, it's exceedingly low risk and I'm interested in how things will play out.

Footnotes

1. Myself included — I tagged 400 pages in a day during my run as jstaff and inadvertently attained guru an hour later.

Last edited on 15 Dec 2020 01:10 by Nagiros Show more

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

Yossipossi 15 Dec 2020 00:52

This sums up my stance on this fairly well. I am not in favor of removing the karma bar, but I would not be directly opposed to it either.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

TheMightyMcB 15 Dec 2020 01:06

This is a pretty fair read on the situation. The only time I've ever found karma useful was as a new site member in the critique forums. Karma is a useful metric in quickly ascertaining if someone is new. A low or no karma user will nearly always be a new user. Can that be cheated? Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that low or no karma users do not use the site often or have not been using it for a long time.

I'm personally ambivalent on removing it or not, but I guess I'd be down to give it a shot if just to see just how much the rest of the community actually cares about some stupid colored bars. Might be more trouble than it's worth, might not be.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

MalyceGraves 15 Dec 2020 04:00

Even then, that is not always the case. I remember a situation where I came across a thread in the ideas forum posted by someone with Very High karma. Turns out they'd only been on the SCP Wiki for a day or so, but were one of the administrative staff for another wikidot site.

This was a single example out of many, but it is possible to be both a new user AND have a high karma rating.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

TheMightyMcB 15 Dec 2020 04:24

I think you misread my point. I was saying that it is guaranteed that a low karma user is new to using wikidot. The inverse is not a guarantee and I've seen lots of examples of that.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

MalyceGraves 15 Dec 2020 15:05

My apologies; the mistake is entirely mine and my post was superfluous.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

WhiteGuard 15 Dec 2020 01:34

I haven't really seen people complain about it other than saying it could be better than it currently is. If anything, I have seen people enjoy seeing their own individual levels be raised as they continued to be active. This was the case for myself. It was a fun little thing to see. Even if someone "cheats" the system to become guru, who really cares? If that is something that makes them happy then go for it. Pertaining to the idea that high karma correlates to a staff member, I would say anyone who isn't an absolute newbie knows the difference and learned it quickly. Newbies struggle with a lot of new features and I really haven't seen a negative impact to karma in regards to newbies mistaking active users for staff.

In regards to its usefulness, it at the very least allows me to know if someone is completely new rather than someone who has been on Wikidot for a while at just a glance.

So yeah, I don't really the need to remove it. It will upset some people, remove a feature many people enjoy, and nothing will be taking its place. The harm involved appears to be very miniscule from what I have seen. I don't see a reason to remove the karma bar unless we have a better feature to replace it on hand.

Regarding the Pro Plus Star, I think it is a good idea to remove that. So few people have that so those people really stand out. It is also something that has nothing to do with activity, so it has no useful function.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

cybersqyd 15 Dec 2020 07:11

I'm inclined to say that the advantages of the karma bar outlined by Nagiros and WhiteGuard are, while minimal and easily cheated, sufficient that it's better to keep it than get rid of it, and so I oppose hiding the karma bar.

I'm largely neutral on the pro-star; it's a little jankily done but it's ultimately not really something that's very noticeable either way so shrugs.

Re: Discussion: Hiding Karma on Mainsite

The Pighead 15 Dec 2020 07:46

against because me sad about still not having guru bar

In all seriousness, I don't care at all about Karma or the Pro Star and, tbh, even if I see less people saying that Karma is super-important and stuff, it's still pretty annoying when it happens.

Plus, in regards to re: Nagiros, WhiteGuard, even if your arguments are valid and I will not contest it, there's other ways than Karma for seeing who have experience (the comments they post on forums, the way they talk and act, clicking on their names and checking their Wikidot profiles, the useful pages we have…). At least, when it comes to me, I don't need to check Karma for knowing who seems trustworthy or not, personally (but again, that's just my opinion and I don't force the others to agree).

So, yeah, get rid of it. Both.

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