Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

Summary:

Discuss this properly before you start voting on/deciding on/coming up with solutions guys

Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

(account deleted) 01 Jun 2015 14:46

Athena_Grey asked me to post these logs of an earlier conversation in 17:

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11:18 Athena_Grey I was thinking a bit, about what can or can't fall under the heading of "Project Crossover"
11:20 Athena_Grey basically, I'm thinking about all the cases some newbie posted a SCP whose material is taken from some franchise or another
11:20 Athena_Grey which obviously is plagiarism, yeah
11:20 Zolgamax right
11:20 Athena_Grey but I'm sort of wondering about, to what extent we're dealing more with some folks being clueless and inexperienced
11:21 Athena_Grey and not being able to differentiate plagiarism vs. fanfiction/not being able to properly articulate that they want to write a /fanfic/
11:22 Athena_Grey esp since as Project Crossover shows that, yes, we are indeed ok with fanfics being on the wiki
11:22 Decibelle there is something like http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1926-r which blurs the line a bit but is clearly meant to be an homage

11:22 Alexandra Decibelle: SCP-1926-R (Rating:+57, Written by eric_h) - http://scp-wiki.net/scp-1926-r

11:22 Decibelle rather than, say, plagiarism
11:23 Athena_Grey and I'm sort of wondering if advertising Project Crossover more - so that those folks know where and how to chuck their fanfic on the site and signify to reader clearly that it's a fanfic - would help
11:24 Athena_Grey that one is also tagged as Project Crossover
11:24 Decibelle yup
11:24 Athena_Grey so I guess we already have precedent
11:24 Decibelle thats why im using it as an example
11:28 Athena_Grey so does that mean we should advertise PC more?
11:28 Decibelle where would it be advertised?
11:29 Athena_Grey well, I guess both in term of using our outreach channels so that fans/newbies who aren't necessarily too familiar about the site know about it
11:30 Athena_Grey also, there's the question of whether the default response to whenever someone posted a Green Lantern ring SCP, for example
11:31 TwistedGears ….How /do/ you find Project Crossover, actually
11:31 Athena_Grey is to ban for plagiarism, or consider it a Project Crossover post that got posted in the wrong place
11:31 Zolgamax TwistedGears: Pentagram, goat blood, specific incantations.
11:32 TwistedGears Like I'm poking around and I have no idea where it is
11:32 TwistedGears Other than knowing to begin with
11:32 Athena_Grey (kinda like how "person posted draft thread on the wrong forum instead of the proper draft forum" is a different beast from "person deliberately shits on the forum"
11:33 Athena_Grey TwistedGears I once search some other things from the site, and one of the results that matched my keywords was a Power Rangers story in Project Crossover
11:33 Athena_Grey but that kinda illustrates my point
11:33 Athena_Grey we do allow fanfiction on the wiki
11:33 TwistedGears Right but you have to specifically search for it
11:34 TwistedGears There doesn't seem to be an organic way to find it as, say, the canons or something
11:34 Athena_Grey but the place where fanfictions are supposed to go is hidden enough, fanficcers wouldn't bloody know about it
11:34 Athena_Grey TwistedGears there's a hub page
11:34 Athena_Grey http://www.scp-wiki.net/crossoverprojectindex

11:34 Alexandra Athena_Grey: Project Crossover (Rating:+9, Written by DrClef) - http://scp-wiki.net/crossoverprojectindex

11:34 TwistedGears Yes I get that
11:34 TwistedGears But how the fuck do you find that page
11:34 Athena_Grey and actually, it was more "I searched for other thing and find it by accident", not even "I was looking for it"
11:39 * wAterFireK is now known as Waterfire
11:42 Athena_Grey anyway, thoughts?
11:43 Zolgamax I think it's probably good to promote PC a bit more.
11:44 Zolgamax It needs more exposure and there's some stuff that's better suited there than the places it's actually submitted
11:44 Zolgamax But I also think that there's a pretty clear line between a PC piece and an SCP article that plagiarizes popular culture
11:49 * Famine_ quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
11:49 Athena_Grey there is, yeah

Athena and I talking:

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15:35 Tuomey hm
15:36 Tuomey so you think there should be, like, a project crossover page or something?
15:36 Tuomey might not be a bad idea
15:37 * Devereaux joined #site17 worra.si.eman.ym.fo.flah.rehto.eht.esuaceb.egdod.retteb.uoy|veD#worra.si.eman.ym.fo.flah.rehto.eht.esuaceb.egdod.retteb.uoy|veD
15:37 * EldritchCyanide|Sleeps quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) moc.duolccri.gnilae.5219B533-CRInys|84148diu#moc.duolccri.gnilae.5219B533-CRInys|84148diu
15:37 Athena_Grey well, not sure about the details
15:37 Tuomey apparently we do have a page
15:37 Athena_Grey but I was thinking about something that could communicate to the newbies, loudly, that "yes we do allow fanfic-stuffs post them over here"
15:38 Tuomey maybe it should be linked more clearly
15:38 Tuomey hmm
15:38 Athena_Grey because, well, after all the warnings and people still post a, idk, Star Trek phaser as a SCP without mentioning where it comes from, sure
15:39 * Devereaux quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) worra.si.eman.ym.fo.flah.rehto.eht.esuaceb.egdod.retteb.uoy|veD#worra.si.eman.ym.fo.flah.rehto.eht.esuaceb.egdod.retteb.uoy|veD
15:39 Athena_Grey that's plagiarism, cut-and-dry
15:39 Tuomey I'm not sure how well this is gonna go over with staff - we don't generally want people jumping in to crossover stuff without a grounding in the site first, y'know? but I'll post to 05
15:39 Eskobear hmm?
15:39 Athena_Grey but idk, I feel like sometimes we have more of a case of newbie stupidity than actual malice
15:40 Tuomey I see what you mean
15:40 Tuomey it's just that
15:40 Tuomey we don't want a wave of stupidity either
15:40 Tuomey Malice would be worse, yeah
15:40 Tuomey But they're both kinda bad
15:40 Athena_Grey and having some nice intro of "yeah we're ok with fanfic stuffs based on other franchise, but here's what you have to do so that it won't be a case of you not acknowledging the original creators" would be good
15:41 Athena_Grey yeah
15:41 Athena_Grey I can see that

TL:DR; Athena points out that the crossover page is somewhat hidden from newbs and thinks that we should make it less hidden.

Given that it's not linked from the top bar and I only found it myself via google, she's not exactly wrong.

Last edited on 01 Jun 2015 14:54 by (account deleted) Show more

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

Zyn 01 Jun 2015 16:46

I'm alright with making Project Crossover more obvious so long as there's some sort of accompanying guide that hits the following points:

• Plagiarism is still bad. Writing up a copyrighted character as an SCP straight-up will still get a piece wiped. We do not want anime/superhero/video game characters written up as SCPs etc. etc.
• Just because it's fanfic does not mean standards are lowered. If something's below -10, still wiped.
• Know that even if [insert crossover material] is supes popular, that does not guarantee that all your readers have heard about it, and the tale should still be at least interesting if the person isn't well-versed in the other thing.
• Whatever else people think up.

I'm almost tempted to have a prerequisite "you must have at least one successful page on the site so you have at least minimal knowledge of how to write for the site" requirement, but I'm a little iffy on that… My primary concern is people who write only Project Crossover because they want to tie the Foundation to all sorts of other things and aren't interested in coming up with their own material.

Thoughts?

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

(account deleted) 01 Jun 2015 17:12

mmm, only writing crossover stuff isn't inherently bad.

People not having a good idea of the site and trying to write a buncha crossover stuff would be pretty bad though.

Not really for that extra prerequisite unless we get, like, a massive influx of people who just don't get the site at all.

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

DrClef 01 Jun 2015 17:42

… We could make Project Crossover a canon or something?

And honestly I don't see how an influx of bad crossover fiction is any worse than an influx of bad SCPs. But I wouldn't object to Zyn's rules in bullet points (not the "you need at least X to write", as that rarely works well.)

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

(account deleted) 01 Jun 2015 18:15

I think it's more of a "link it from somewhere people can actually see" type deal

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

Zyn 01 Jun 2015 18:23

(not the "you need at least X to write", as that rarely works well.)

Yeah. How about Project Crossover stuff is required to be sandboxed and reviewed by at least one site writer before posting? Basically, I'm just trying to prevent a flood of SCP/MLP/DBZ/etc. stuff hitting the site. Forum crit team's spread thin as it is.

I don't see how an influx of bad crossover fiction is any worse than an influx of bad SCPs.

People generally know how to deal with bad SCPs since SCPs are the staple of the site. Crossovers can be difficult since if a reader isn't familiar with the reference, the confusion might impact the judgment.

Last edited on 01 Jun 2015 18:24 by Zyn Show more

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

Rejekyll 01 Jun 2015 18:41

How about Project Crossover stuff is required to be sandboxed and reviewed by at least one site writer before posting?

No need for this. I don't think we'll be getting so many more articles that it would warrant more stringent rules. As far as I can remember, people not knowing crossover source material hasn't ever been the reason that an objectively bad story was left on the site. I agree that some guidelines would be beneficial but we really don't need to go overboard.

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

Zyn 01 Jun 2015 19:00

people not knowing crossover source material hasn't ever been the reason that an objectively bad story was left on the site.

I was thinking more along the lines of people not reading drafts that had crossover stuff because they weren't familiar with it. Or someone might post a draft that gets the response, "Seems alright, but I don't know what's going on since I don't know the other work involved" and then get hit with "I don't think you got the portrayal right at all" from someone who knows the reference.

I'm not overly worried about the mainsite reaction.

So long as we have staff there to deal with whatever legwork accompanies making Project Crossover more visible (I'm alright with it being under SCP Library, between Audio Adaptations and Creepy Pasta Archive), I'm fine with it.

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

TroyL 01 Jun 2015 20:55

… We could make Project Crossover a canon or something?

This isn't what canons are used for, really. It doesn't really meet the classification that we've put forth as it's not continuous and it lacks any sort of overarching narrative.

And honestly I don't see how an influx of bad crossover fiction is any worse than an influx of bad SCPs.

The only real difference is that we'd have people writing things that were supposed to be taken at a value we're not accustomed to giving. It's essentially the problem of how many "bad fan fics that are supposed to be bad" can the site support before it hits critical downvote mass and starts slamming all of them. The site's 'fuck it point' for a concept, I guess, similar to 'teeth became shark' and 'consult an alchemist.' We know that "bad fan fics that are supposed to be bad" is what we're going to end up with, after all. It's the sort of pattern the site has. Easier to mock than embrace (compare "Saving Sigguos Potter" to "Time And Relative Dimensions In Containment Protocols", for an example).

If we're going to have a bunch of new kinds of hoops for people to jump through, then there's no reason to bother with promoting it at all. Completely defeats the purpose.

To be honest, the best way to get something like this out there and seen would be for Kaktus to get together with two or three authors who've written them, talk about fanfiction and the Foundation for a while, then have a nice, big news post about the podcast on the front page. It would draw attention, inform listeners, and be easily digestible for the current site members.

As a final note about plagiarism:

The difference between plagiarism and an homage is in owning up to your source material. Newbies should not be demonized for 'plagiarizing' something until they've refused to own up to their choices. They just don't get that it's not something we really do here, which is something that is easy to miss, especially since we've got An Angel of God, A Zombie Plague, and a Dimensional Door in the first ten SCPs, all of which are concepts that pop up in games.

Hopefully, the eventual redo of the Writing Guides (still waiting on people) will help allay that problem.

Edit: Just glanced at the page and the individual entries again. If there's time to be had, can LurkD possibly redo the page into something more presentable? Afterwards, we can link the different tales all back to the hub to make it more visible than just the parent link at the top. Let it spread on its own.

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"WELL FOUNDATION. YOU MADE IT SO EASY. SO VERY VERY EASY." - dimensionpotato

Last edited on 01 Jun 2015 20:59 by TroyL Show more

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

Crayne 02 Jun 2015 07:38

Prettying it up is always a good thing, but I have no idea why Project Crossover would merit a place on the navigation. It's a thing we do, but it's not our core business. Color me completely disinterested.

Edit: just to be clear: I don't think the creepypasta archives should be linked either, but they're already up there. ;)

Last edited on 02 Jun 2015 09:06 by Crayne Show more

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

Eskobar 02 Jun 2015 10:19

I think Project Crossover's current state is fine. I'm not worried about people doing shitty crossovers and flooding the site, because as with all writing, if it sucks, it'll get flushed down the toilet. If someone had never written anything else and suddenly wanted to write a twelve-part epic about Jimmy McNulty dealing with anomalous drug kingpins in West Baltimore, its quality will speak for itself, as with all the other works on the site. Either he'll do it well, in which case, good for him, or he'll do it badly, in which case, another brick in the deletions announcement thread. No harm, no foul.

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

LurkD 02 Jun 2015 22:02

Agreeing strongly with this sentiment.

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

ProcyonLotor 02 Jun 2015 22:59

Myself as well.

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

Vincent_Redgrave 03 Jun 2015 00:31

Agreeing. As much as I'd enjoy seeing Project: Crossover get more attention on the site, there's no reason to dilute our core brand.

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

LurkD 03 Jun 2015 12:48

Not to mention that there's plenty of legit SCP tales out there that don't get enough love. Don't push your liberal tale agenda on us! I'm for tale equality.

Re: Project crossover - should we make it more obvious

TroyL 03 Jun 2015 16:28

It looks like there's a fairly solid "Let's not do that" sort of feeling that people have expressed. I think updating the page and making it look better, as well as interlinking the tales themselves through a footer that would go back to the HUB, is a solid way to promote and encourage the project, but there seems to be no reason for additional linking, promoting, or navigation changes. I think we can consider this conversation closed.

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"WELL FOUNDATION. YOU MADE IT SO EASY. SO VERY VERY EASY." - dimensionpotato