Dr. Everett Mann,

thanks. I am glad to see your answer. As you say, this model works for some sites, but not necessarily for other. Joining Community Sites is always optional, all I can is to try convincing people it is worth considering. If you are OK with the status quo, I am still very glad you are using Wikidot!

The compromise you are suggesting should work fine. Even if ads do not cover the the costs in 100%, we can still cover the remaining costs ourselves. It is just hard to do it to the present extent.

Let us stay in touch! If you need anything, send me a message. Your site is really awesome and we would be glad to help your site grow, even if it is not a Community Site. The same way we try to help DarkSouls and other popular wikis.

Cheers,
Michał

So, it looks like everything's worked out, at least for now.

Mr. Frąckowiak, first let me thank you for taking the time to help us resolve this issue, and to let you know that we appreciate the support and help we've received from Wikidot over the years.

I've discussed your proposal with other admins and staff, and we've come to the conclusion that the community model isn't, ultimately, what's best for our site, though I agree that it will be useful for a variety of other sites. We just aren't ready to give up that much administrative control.

However, I agree that it's unfair for Wikidot to bear an undue financial load from the Foundation. To that end, I'd like to discuss a compromise. We would like to continue our current model, but we're willing to allow Wikidot to place ads to defray the costs. For now, let's try text-only ads at the bottom of the page. If that does not end up providing sufficient revenue, we can discuss other possibilities, but I would like to keep the ads as unobtrusive as possible. Above all, we'd like to avoid the random hyperlink ads we had sporadically before upgrading to Pro.

Again, thank you for wanting to work with us. I'm sure we can find a solution that meets both our needs.

—Dr. Everett Mann

I'll keep everyone updated when he responds.

I had always assumed that we wouldn't ENTIRELY delete our presence here, if only to set up a re-direct or preserve the comment threads/forums for posterity, but for it to explicitly be part of the package that we lose the ability to delete it if that's our choice is a total non-starter for me. Not to mention the fact that that it sounds like a Community Site can't be locked down into read-only mode….

This and this. I would need a bunch of really compelling reasons for us to willingly give up such administrative control.

As for the Community Site thing, let me quote from their description of them:

Can a Community Site be deleted?

No. Certain options, including renaming and removing, are disabled for Community Sites.

Can I take over an abandoned Community Site?

Yes! Each such case is processed individually, so just get in touch with us!

Oh. Hell. No.

As I said before, I had always assumed that we wouldn't ENTIRELY delete our presence here, if only to set up a re-direct or preserve the comment threads/forums for posterity, but for it to explicitly be part of the package that we lose the ability to delete it if that's our choice is a total non-starter for me. Not to mention the fact that that it sounds like a Community Site can't be locked down into read-only mode, so if/when we do move on, theoretically someone else could move in and fast-talk Wikidot into letting them take over, and then present themselves as the "REAL" Foundation. We most certainly don't want some little shit (whether well-meaning or lulz-ing) to even have the POSSIBILITY of being able to do that.

So yeah. Vote strongly "no" on changing to a Community Site.

But yeah, gonna stuck with Mann's idea of compromise, and not joining community sites.

So, the moment I read the Community Sites info page, warnings started to go off in my head mainly because it seemed like Wikidot is starting to punish big sites by putting them into a different expenditures account. I saw this happening often with up-and-coming free-Internet sites/games/whatever deciding to go the ENTERPRISE route because of new management or whatnot, and usually what happens is that the large communities that made the site big in the first place had to leave because they were essentially punished for being big and non-conformant to the business model. I was waiting until I saw the PM from Wikidot before I made any judgements because I'm just a paranoid jerk but
Lo and behold,

Quoting from the PM admins received

– hide block

Line 11: I can see you have already purchased a Pro Lite account — if you decide to convert to a Community Site and you do not need the paid subscription any more we can issue a refund.

Line 13: One of the questions you might have is running ads on the site. This is a delicate topic but I prefer the honest and straightforward approach: your site generates quite a lot of traffic — about 550 GB in October — which would sum up to 1,000 USD per year (take average price $0.15/GB) — and the price of the Pro Lite ($50/year) covers only 5% of our costs here.

Line 15: We are actually planning to introduce extra charges for sites with outstanding traffic, but we will officially announce it well ahead of — this is not official yet, but something to keep in mind.

I understand that the Wikidot business model was made very early on before sites like ours started cropping up but AFAICT, it seems like this is a silly way of consolidating an old business model and pricing plan, and it also seems like they're trying to guilt-trip the site in becoming a Community site (zomg you guys are too expensive). Seriously, those lines are explicitly there to say "Hey man, we weren't gonna collect before but now since you're big, you gotta pay up soon."

The Pro account was bought to get the advertised Pro features on top of free wiki features, not to pay for the bandwidth, and yet they're bringing it up as an excuse to push the site into Community status. If we're not allowed to get what we want from a Pro membership, then it's time to leave. It's not our fault bandwidth costs were never a consideration in any of Wikidot's pricing tiers.

Also, I think it'll be impossible to convert ouf of Community site status once the switch is made.

Like I said before, i think this is a big ploy to convert the big sites under some special Wikidot umbrella that'll probably screw us over later on. </paranoid>

If anything, this PM is a huge warning siren - The SCPF project needs to finish soon enough for a site migration to occur before Wikidot decides to axe us without warning (i can chip in effort but nobody talks to me). Unless we specifically become profitable for Wikidot, we're gonna have problems continuously.

To clarify, I don't mind letting Wikidot run ads for non-users (I don't know what's going to change from the ad-filled blobs non-users already get). The issue is with shuffling the site into a (new/vague) separate site category (warning sign), hinting that we should do what they want because we're leechers (really expensive leechers) using their free service, and the change in wiki control structure. No good can come from continuing this path.

tl;dr - IT'S A TRAP
1. Buying a Pro Account no longer means we can have a site on their free service with features we paid for, or that we're customers
2. SCP Foundation too big for Wikidot, CEO agreed, don't bother him about it
3. Community wiki status is a permanent decision, can't go back AFAICT (so no "temporary Community")
4. I think the site is only going to keep growing, and I don't know if Wikidot's Community featureset will be able to scale properly to match our growth.

P.S. I wonder if their bandwidth calculations include the sub-sites like the sandboxes, RPs, other language off-shoots, etc.

P.P.S. To address Bland's question, the pricing page ( http://www.wikidot.com/plans ) seems to say there are limits on storage that can be raised after a site admin requests it to Wikidot.

Mann's reply to Bland's PM - "I honestly don't think it's that dire" and "I'm sure we can find some middle ground" can also easily be applied to all of this. But I think this should still be seriously considered. Thoughts?

Though I should emphasize again that ads may be a necessary evil at this point. Maybe even those fucking awful double-green underline ads. Ugh. I agree we should resist that but it may be the only choice.

Evidence seems to suggest that they read 05, judging from some of their statements in the PM. I assume they're aware of it.

Probably, but I'd prefer to err on the side of not emphasizing it. Not hiding it, but not emphasizing it either. (And yes, I'm saying this with full awareness that it could, or could eventually, be read by 'them'. Hopefully I'm being clear enough as to why I would have this opinion that they'll understand.)

We should deal with this issue - IMO - on two levels: (1) If Project Foundation never goes through, what's the optimal situation for us?, and (2) If Project Foundation does go through as planned, hopefully by the end of next year (I assume), then what's the optimal situation for us? - and try to get a solution that would work for both (1) and (2). Mann and others in this thread seem to be just aiming for (2), and in-my-humble-I-am-not-an-administrator-opinion, that's bad practice. Let's err on the side of caution.

Text only, bottom of the page, only people who are not logged in. I do not want those damned double-green underline ads back on the site. Also, I'm still just a mite pissed over Wikidot deleting the record we kept here of the pedo-user without so much as a fucking notification, and their incredibly flippant response to Bright when concern was addressed. It's interesting to see how now, when they want our help, they're coming hat-in-hand. But when we wanted answers? We were told to fuck off, in so many words.

I'd also like to note that we really don't want to tell them that we're going. It has the tendency to make people jump all over the bandwagon and try to take advantage of the situation. If we were to tell them that? I'm not sure what the reaction would actually be, and I don't care to find out.

I'm in a bad mood, so if this is coming across as aggressive, then good. :)

I'm afraid for various reasons, we're not interested in a community site. As well, we do eventually want to move to a site where we have more control, and the description you've given us of a community site suggests that this would be difficult for us to do (since someone else could come in and take over the site after we've moved). We are very grateful to Wikidot for the support they've given us and to the Wikidot community, but we're getting to the point where we need things that Wikidot can't offer.

However, we're not ready to move just yet, and we agree that it's not fair to Wikidot to shoulder the burden of hosting us without receiving due compensation. Therefore we suggest that they run the aforementioned ads on our current site. Let's start with text-only ads, and if that isn't generating enough revenue, we can move up from there.

Again, thank you for your support, and I'm hopeful we can come to an accommodation that will benefit both Wikidot and the SCP Foundation.

I'm gonna send that tomorrow night. Any suggestions/objections, voice 'em now.

I don't see this as a threat, so much as "we want to work with you, and here are the options we've come up with." Let's give them some counter-proposals. I'm sure we can find some middle ground.

Just read the pastebin letter. That's… worse then I thought. I was hoping it was a form letter, but it's VERY specifically targeted at us.

Basically "SCP is costing us way more then we're getting. Let us put ads on your site. [implied: or we're gong to change the agreements and make you take them or maybe shut you down because we can't afford you.]"

Question - If we DID convert to a Community Site, and didn't like it, can we convert back?

Side point: I wonder how many of our members have made other sites and gotten pro memberships.

I was a proponent of leaving the site up after we moved, but now I'm not sure I like that idea. Damnit.

However, FWIW, I don't think the ads part of it is a big deal, especially considering we still plan to go through with PF & there's no change for logged-in users.

Is there any way we can get a copy of the PM posted here on 05 for those of us not currently on chat (and not administrators)?

We won't be able to delete the site, we'll have to make sure to avoid becoming an "abandoned" site that anyone can claim

Oh, that's a big concern. I didn't think that we'd ever fully delete the old site, if only to preserve the various comment threads, but I assumed that we'd lock the site into read-only mode once we moved. If us as a community site can be hijacked after we leave… no thank you. We do NOT need someone coming behind us either A) claiming to really be us or B) tarnishing our reputation.

Other concerns (which Bland brought up in PM):

• What are the file storage limits? i didn't see them.
• Are we going to be held to some sort of "Community Standard" instead of a "Customer Standard" (which is one of the reasons we're moving)
• We won't be able to delete the site, we'll have to make sure to avoid becoming an "abandoned" site that anyone can claim.

These are all very valid concerns, particularly the last one. I want to hear his answers to these questions, but I have a feeling that we are going to want to avoid going to a Community Site.

I would recommend we be up front about our eventual plans to move away from Wikidot. I do think that we're not going to get away with being ad free while we're still at WikiDot. So, I think our best course of action is seeing if they'll allow us to continue as we have, but with advertisement, as he describes in his PM. He seemed to be very accommodating, so hopefully we can reach an agreement that won't be too unobtrusive. I know that it would be best if we could go completely ad free, but given our traffic, I don't think it's reasonable to ask at this point.

your site generates quite a lot of traffic — about 550 GB in October — which would sum up to 1,000 USD per year (take average price $0.15/GB)

550 GB * $0.15/GB = $82.50. I think they either got the math wrong or the units wrong or something. It might be inconsequential, but just thought I'd bring it up.

Also, Mann, I'm not seeing where in the FAQ they say they can reassign new admins at will. Is that on a different page, or am I just missing it?

Well, aside from that, there really isn't any real problem with the change in everything that I can see.

EDIT: Apart from the issue that Mann just brought up.

Though not an admin, my thought on this is that we cost them way more than we pay them, so it's a bit of a dick move on our parts to push to continue that trend. Ads not being displayed to logged in users makes me ok with this.