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		<title>Incorporation?</title>
		<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation</link>
		<description>Posts in the discussion thread &quot;Incorporation?&quot; - Do we do it, and how if so?</description>
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1602068</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1602068</link>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>thedeadlymoose</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>732274</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Here's another FWIW tidbit: I'm taking an introductory entrepreneurship course at the moment, and one of the things we've learned about LLCs is that they can be very expensive, with about a jillion fees. Cursory googling finds this: <a href="http://www.legalzoom.com/llc-faq/llc-operating-costs.html">http://www.legalzoom.com/llc-faq/llc-operating-costs.html</a></p> <p>Also, we <em>have</em> to incorporate where we operate, legally speaking, per the same course. If I understand correctly, it's where we have servers and stuff. (Though as usual IANAL)</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1583700</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1583700</link>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 21:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>thedeadlymoose</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>732274</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>My $0.02: Explaining something like this over a forum would be <em>incredibly</em> frustrating.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1583610</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1583610</link>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 18:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>DrEverettMann</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>323946</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>I'm in the US now, so normal working hours (barring a flight). I can't do this Friday, as I have duty. Other than that, my weekends are free.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1583523</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1583523</link>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 16:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>DrEverettMann</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>323946</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>We can keep and post the logs later. If chat works best for Spike&#8230;</p> <p>Spike, what time would be good for you?</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1583474</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1583474</link>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 15:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Kain Pathos Crow</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>172549</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>I'd prefer it over forum, as that way it would be much easier to keep records, we don't have to worry about the major time differences and I don't have to worry about the lackadaisical state of my internet.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1583473</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1583473</link>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 15:06:06 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>spikebrennan</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>908688</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Because it would be easier for me to explain the background concepts orally rather than for me to try to write a dissertation on the subject.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1583414</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1583414</link>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>RhettSarlin</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>300030</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Actually, he's back in the states. Just for accuracy :P</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1583195</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1583195</link>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 04:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>AdminBright</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>224440</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Why can't we do this over forum?</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1583148</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1583148</link>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 02:58:19 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>spikebrennan</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>908688</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>We can't do this over the forum. We need a scheduled chat or, better yet, a conference call. Mann, you're in Afghanistan: what time slots does that give us?</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1582915</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1582915</link>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Quikngruvn</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>333389</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p><strong>N.b.</strong> standard I Am Not A Lawyer caveats.</p> <p>Based on what little I've read, particularly re: Terms of Use/Service, the answer to <strong>Do we incorporate as an official organization?</strong> is almost certainly Yes. The questions isn't really Whether we do, but How to do it.</p> <p><strong>What kind of organization?</strong> Again, based on a bit of internet research, our options (in the US) appear to be to incorporate either as a Limited Liability Corporation (LLC) or as a non-profit. Now, &quot;non-profit&quot; is not the same as &quot;tax-exempt&quot;&#8212; federal and state tax exemptions are applied for separately, <em>after</em> the non-profit has been officially created. I have no idea if there are any advantages to being a non-profit without having tax-exempt status, or how feasible us getting tax-exempt status would be. It would also depend on where we decide to incorporate, since requirements differ from state to state. Speaking of.</p> <p><strong>Where will we incorporate?</strong> Delaware seems to be a popular choice, for its extensive body of corporate law, its efficient corporate litigation apparatus (the Court of Chancery), and its &quot;pro-business environment&quot;. However, we may not ever reach the scale where we would enjoy many of those advantages (then again, who'd have thought four years ago we'd be talking about incorporating?), though again that's speculation on my part. In any case, if not Delaware, than the home state of one of the admins, I would imagine. No idea what if any advantages could be gained from incorporating outside the US.</p> <p><strong>Who will be in charge?</strong> Admins, I reckon&#8212; see below.</p> <p><strong>What will our structure be?</strong> Both the LLC and the non-profit appear to require a Board of Directors or some equivalent, so I would expect that the Board would be made up of all active Admins. Also note that who <em>runs</em> the corporation is not necessarily the same as who <em>owns</em> it (yet another consideration). Beyond the Board though&#8230; I dunno, but we'd have to figure that out also. There are a bunch of documents that would need to be written, include articles of incorporation, a corporate charter, and a set of by-laws, in addition to the terms of use.</p> <p>Hmm. Let me rephrase: there's a shitload of documentation that's gonna have to be written.</p> <p><strong>How will we finance this?</strong> Once we have an idea of how much money we'll need (initially and ongoing), we can start a proper donation drive, one with goals and running totals and transparency. We can't really look to the last donation drive as a predictor&#8212; assuming we spell out exactly what we're trying to fund. Also &quot;official&quot; merchandise sales, whenever those can be up and running (though I have no idea if that should wait till after incorporation).</p> <p>Personally, I'm leaning toward seeing if we can make it a non-profit, pending more info, of course.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1582196</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1582196</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2012 18:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>murphy_slaw</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>1319317</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Nolo Press is pretty much the place to go for this kind of legal information in layman's terms. It obviously doesn't eliminate the need for real legal counsel, but it's great for getting the lay of the land. Some articles of interest:</p> <p><a href="http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/nonprofit-basics-29948.html">http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/nonprofit-basics-29948.html</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/five-reasons-incorporate-nonprofit-association-30266.html">http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/five-reasons-incorporate-nonprofit-association-30266.html</a></p> <p>(note that most of these reasons don't apply to us strongly)</p> <p><a href="http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/limited-liability-company">http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/limited-liability-company</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/llc-basics-30163.html">http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/llc-basics-30163.html</a></p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1581991</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581991</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2012 13:24:14 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Kain Pathos Crow</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>172549</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p><strong>Do we incorporate as an official organization?</strong> Yes, if only to correctly protect our assets and protect ourselves.</p> <p><strong>What kind of organization? (Non-profit, business, etc)</strong> I'd lean towards non-profit, but again, our ignorance is our undoing here.</p> <p><strong>Where will we incorporate?</strong> Possibly U.S.A., but how about seeing what countries are open to us, and give us the best deal for setting up in their country. This will probably come down to what kind of organisation we are.</p> <p><strong>Who will be in charge?</strong> Cyclical duties of the admins. 4 of us take on the mantles of the needed trustees, and shift them every quarter.</p> <p><strong>What will our structure be?</strong> I have no idea.</p> <p><strong>How will we finance this?</strong> I'd say fun the opening fees ourselves, which shouldn't bee too hard. There's quite a few of us, and that means singularly, we don't have to put too much in. I can spare 1-200bucks to help us start up. After that, hopefully we can get onto Moley about his store idea, and maybe the results of the odd donation drive.</p> <p>First of all though, I'd like it if we hired someone like spike in an official capacity to inform and teach us about what exactly the fuck we are doing. If there's anything this site teaches us is that ignorance will get you killed.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1581858</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581858</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2012 07:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>thedeadlymoose</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>732274</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <blockquote> <p>I do not have enough information to make a viable decision on this matter. We just… don't know enough.</p> </blockquote> <p>Terribly, utterly true.</p> <p>Who among us <em>does</em> have enough information? And, where can we find more information? Do we need to pay someone for it? If so, how much?</p> <p>I could randomly Google, but I wouldn't even know where to start. :/</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1581808</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581808</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2012 04:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Pig_catapult</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>233556</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Same here.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1581803</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581803</link>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2012 04:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>AdminBright</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>224440</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>I do not have enough information to make a viable decision on this matter. We just&#8230; don't know enough.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1581535</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581535</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 20:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>murphy_slaw</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>1319317</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p><em>Do we incorporate as an official organization?</em></p> <p>Yes, liability limitation, ability to be a party to contracts with service providers, and ability to collect funds as an organization rather than an individual make this inevitable in my book.</p> <p><em>What kind of organization? (Non-profit, business, etc)</em></p> <p>If we don't meet the requirements for a non-profit, then LLC.</p> <p><em>Where will we incorporate?</em></p> <p>In whichever state of residence for one of the board members has the cheapest fees and simplest filing requirements. (People seem to like Nevada and Deleware for these reasons but i'm not speaking from experience here.)</p> <p><em>Who will be in charge?</em><br /> <em>What will our structure be?</em></p> <p>Bare minimum, the board should comprise the existing wiki admins insofar as they are legally able to be a party to a U.S. corporation. I believe that we are also required to have a treasurer.</p> <p><em>How will we finance this?</em></p> <p>I don't believe that we should block this on our ability to do a fundraising drive, since that creates a chicken-and-egg problem. I have some money to put towards this goal, and I imagine that other staff do as well. Once we're incorporated, we should do a proper fundraising drive, and possibly reimburse staff for funds put forth for incorporation if we make more than enough to cover that cost + hosting.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1581525</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581525</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 20:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>RhettSarlin</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>300030</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <blockquote> <p>I'm not entirely sure I understand this question. Could you clarify, please?</p> </blockquote> <p>As in, what positions would be in the organization, how it would run, etc.</p> 
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				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581520</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 20:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>thedeadlymoose</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>732274</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Well-said re: initial donation drives, Drewbear.</p> <p>(Also, does anyone actually know what on earth is going on with Moley? Because I sure don't.)</p> 
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				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581519</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 20:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>DrEverettMann</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>323946</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>It's been a while since we talked about this. As I recall, there were some issues with going non-profit in terms of both the costs associated with it and also with liability. An LLC gave us some manner of legal protection (and I'm not one hundred percent sure exactly what kind), and was in some way cheaper, though I think it still cost some amount of money. Spike, we need your help.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1581510</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581510</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 19:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Drewbear</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>301632</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Hoo boy. Okay, here goes:</p> <p><strong>Do we incorporate as an official organization?</strong> Yes. I think it's kinda inevitable at this point, as the only way to cover our collective ass should trouble arise. And the wider our userbase gets, the more likely trouble is, just given the sheer number of people involved.</p> <p><strong>What kind of organization? (Non-profit, business, etc)</strong> I would assume non-profit, but this is <em>really</em> going to depend on the laws of wherever we incorporate. I'm going to defer to Spikebrennan's opinion on this, since he's a law-type-person and I ain't.</p> <p><strong>Where will we incorporate?</strong> See above answer.</p> <p><strong>Who will be in charge?</strong> My limited understanding is that any non-profit that receives monetary compensation, for ANYTHING, requires a minimum of four officers: President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer<sup class="footnoteref"><a id="footnoteref-844603-1" href="javascript:;" class="footnoteref" >1</a></sup>. I would recommend that we take volunteers from Mods &amp; Admins, with the understanding that they serve a minimum period (say, 3-6 months) and can then step down if they feel it's necessary.</p> <p><strong>What will our structure be?</strong> I'm not entirely sure I understand this question. Could you clarify, please?</p> <p><strong>How will we finance this?</strong> Donation drive with fixed monetary goal in order to fund the move to the new server(s) and cover the hosting costs for the first however many months<sup class="footnoteref"><a id="footnoteref-844603-2" href="javascript:;" class="footnoteref" >2</a></sup>, then an Official Store, as has been previously discussed. I seem to recall reading that there was a guy in England interested in running an official store for us, which I don't have a problem with, except for shipping costs when sending to anyplace outside of the UK. We don't want a $1 bumper sticker costing $5 in shipping.</p> <div class="footnotes-footer"> <div class="title">Footnotes</div> <div class="footnote-footer" id="footnote-844603-1"><a href="javascript:;" >1</a>. I could be grossly incorrect, of course. See the IANAL above.</div> <div class="footnote-footer" id="footnote-844603-2"><a href="javascript:;" >2</a>. &quot;Hey, we're setting a goal of $500 to set up our own server and cover the first 3 months of hosting costs. Click here to donate.&quot;</div> </div> 
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				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 19:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Communism will win</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>617958</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Abstaining from this conversation entirely, because A) fuck if I know, and B) I don't feel entirely comfortable dealing with other peoples' money and their liability and whatnot, so even if I <em>did</em> have ideas, I'd hold them back.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1581491</guid>
				<title>Re: Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581491</link>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 19:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>thedeadlymoose</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>732274</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>FUCK.</p> <p>Okay, I'm going to answer best I can, in an effort to encourage everyone to contribute to this discussion, even though I'm not sure my answers will be very useful.</p> <p><strong>Do we incorporate as an official organization?</strong> I get the impression the answer is 'yes' so we don't become personally liable for anything random that might come up. :/</p> <p><strong>What kind of organization?</strong> I'm not sure. I'd lean towards non-profit, but&#8230; Again, I'm not fully cognizant of all the factors involved.</p> <p><strong>Where will we incorporate?</strong> Another good question. Presumably the US, since that's where our servers will be based?</p> <p><strong>Who will be in charge?</strong> Christ. I suppose we'll have to pick a sub-group of administrators. Or else make it 'all administrators'. If it has to be one person&#8230; Well, that's a good question, ain't it? Gears is the one we all want, if it has to be one person, but he's not around. Hey, I know, let's just give it all to Sorts and have done with it :P</p> <p><strong>What will our structure be?</strong> My answer to the above question is the extent of which I even grasp the premise of this question.</p> <p><strong>How will we finance this?</strong> Donation drives up front, and then we REALLY must go the merchandising route, I feel. Up-front, we should just assume we are not paying authors anything, and putting everything to the site. We can address the suggestion of a minor kickback (as someone else put it) to the authors whose specific work is being used again (where applicable - obviously this wouldn't apply, for instance, to T-shirts that just say &quot;The SCP Foundation&quot; on them) after six months to a year or so after Migration.</p> 
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				<guid>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605#post-1581432</guid>
				<title>Incorporation?</title>
				<link>http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-571605/incorporation#post-1581432</link>
				<description></description>
				<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 18:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>RhettSarlin</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>300030</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>This thread will not close for vote after a week, because this is too big a subject to decide quickly.</p> <p>We have thrown this around, but as PF approaches, we need to actually decide it for sure and take action.</p> <p>Very few if any of us really have any idea how to go about this.</p> <p>So the questions:</p> <p><strong>Do we incorporate as an official organization?</strong></p> <p>If so, then:</p> <p><strong>What kind of organization?</strong> (Non-profit, business, etc)</p> <p><strong>Where will we incorporate?</strong></p> <p><strong>Who will be in charge?</strong></p> <p><strong>What will our structure be?</strong></p> <p><strong>How will we finance this?</strong></p> <p>And any questions others may raise.</p> <p>Just getting this started officially because we really, REALLY need to decide this, officially, and take action on it instead of just bandying words about in chat.</p> 
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