20:46 DrWaverton Wait, who made transphobic jokes?
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20:46 CognitiveWeasel Misha Collins.
20:46 DrWaverton is trans.
20:46 DrWaverton What did he say?
20:47 jatenk trans in terms of transsexual?
20:47 DrWaverton nods
20:47 jatenk those have pretty good sex
20:47 ghostchibi jatenk: I have to wonder how else he would-
20:47 CognitiveWeasel He made fun of Jensen Ackles, a co-star, saying he looked like a girl as a teenager, saying that these are pictures of his "pre-op" and he was Jensenna Ackles or something
20:47 ghostchibi excuse me
20:47 tahunu http://i.imgur.com/EIvWbDl.jpg
20:47 bluesoul [13:47] <jatenk> those have pretty good sex <— what
20:47 jatenk or rather, sex with those is pretty good x)
20:47 tahunu …
20:47 ghostchibi jatenk: uh, no
20:47 ghostchibi Tuomey
20:47 tahunu WELP
20:47 Tuomey jatenk
20:47 jatenk for me, at least
20:47 tahunu leaps out the window
20:47 BearJoNNy lol
20:47 DrWaverton I can't understand him, what did he say that was transphobic?
20:47 CognitiveWeasel jatenk: That's a pretty shitty thing to say?
20:47 BearJoNNy sextalk enters #site19
20:47 CryogenChaos …
20:47 Tuomey this is not about your fetishes
20:48 Tuomey literally nothing is about any of our fetishes
20:48 jatenk I don’t have a fetish for transsexuals
20:48 CognitiveWeasel "He made fun of Jensen Ackles, a co-star, saying he looked like a girl as a teenager, saying that these are pictures of his "pre-op" and he was Jensenna Ackles or something"
20:48 BearJoNNy i mean that is kind of a little bit transphobic
20:48 DrWaverton That, uh…
20:48 DrWaverton That's not transphobic. XD
20:48 CognitiveWeasel It kinda is
20:48 DrWaverton That's just "You look like a girl."
20:48 DrWaverton Or rather, looked.
20:48 Tuomey jatenk: allow me to make myself clearer
20:48 CognitiveWeasel No, but saying that "These are his pre-op photos"
20:48 ghostchibi I duno the "pre-op line sounds a bit like it"
20:48 CognitiveWeasel is refering to somebody cis as trans as an insult
20:48 Tuomey Do not tell us about who you like to have sex with
20:48 CognitiveWeasel which is kind of shit
20:48 ghostchibi I could see why people might not like it
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20:49 DrWaverton There's a difference between a mean-spirited insult and a light-hearted riffing.
20:49 Tuomey Especially completely out of nowhere
I'm accelerating this to a 24 hour ban, after extensive discussion with chat operators and staff in SSSC.
[14:23] thedeadlymoose jatenk, I'm going to 24 hour ban you for saying how much you want to fuck transsexuals, right after someone pointed out they were a transsexual. Your O5 thread is here: http://05command.wikidot.com/forum/t-766856/jatenk Feel free to PM with any questions, or ask in #site17
[14:23] jatenk what up thedeadlymoose#
[14:24] Pemander I thought this was just deciding whether or not a moonbase is feasible.
[14:24] jatenk wat
[14:24] =-= jatenk was booted from #site19 by YOU (Come back in 24 hours.)
[14:24] =-= Mode #site19 +b *!*@EB891047.96F9B9B4.4951EEF9.IP by thedeadlymoose
[14:24] thedeadlymoose And, yes, today is anti-creeper day.
[14:24] weizhong Moose: That should be every day
[14:24] thedeadlymoose weizhong: It goddamn well should be.
[14:25] thedeadlymoose But today is when we start, it turns out.
(account deleted)This is attached from post-ban discussion in 17.
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<jatenk> wat
<Eskobear> What part of the ban message was unclear?
<Eskobear> I thought it was rather comprehensive of the situation.
<jatenk> no. it was not.
<jatenk> which part of my messages let you think I wanted to have sex with transsexuals?
<jatenk> I just said they have good sex.
<Tuomey> 20:47 jatenk or rather, sex with those is pretty good x)
<jatenk> and to not be sexist or anything else, I added it was my experience.
<jatenk> yes.
<Tuomey> 20:47 jatenk for me, at least
<Xiao> It doesn't make other people in the chatroom comfortable.
<Tox> I have to point out that jatenk has a point; however, so does Xiao
<jatenk> interesting. we had way more open talk in #farreconooc and people where comfortable with that.
<Xiao> Considering how the line of discussion came to be, it isn't coincidence.
<Tox> jatenk: Different chatrooms, different rules of operation
<Xiao> jatenk, this isn't FR.
<Eskobear> Rephrased: You took an entire group of people (transgendered individuals) and made a gross characterization about the whole of them ("they have good sex") immediately after learning one was present in the room.
<Tuomey> This was not part of a conversation about sex
<Tuomey> One person mentioned they were trans in a context you did not wait to learn before talking about sex
<jatenk> I understand people being uncomfortable with that. I hope to be free in thinking that that is sad, and that I think that a ban about that is harsh. A warning would have been way sufficent.
<Eskobear> It was deemed afterward that it was not sufficient.
<jatenk> I did not say a word after.
<jatenk> I stopped every participating in the conversation when I saw people were being uncomfortable with it.
<Tox> jatenk, think for a second. Someone identified as trans, and literally the next thing you say is "those have pretty good sex." Why would you think that is an appropriate segue?
<jatenk> *every participation
<Xiao> It still warrants action.
<jatenk> sure. like, a warning.
<jatenk> although it is possible to see a 24h-ban as a warning.
<jatenk> Tox: why would you think it is not?
<Tox> That's not the question.
<Eskobear> I suppose a 24-hour ban is a warning, and an emphasis upon how serious the matter is taken.
<jatenk> this discussion would come down to basics about socialism and ethics.
<Tox> /what/
<Tox> where do you get /socialism/ from this
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<Quikngruvn> D'ya mean sociology?
<jatenk> maybe. I’m foreign.
<Tox> Oh, that's understandable
<Tox> But the question remains, why did you feel your segue was appropriate?
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<Xiao> Tox, let me take over.
<jatenk> I find it far more interesting why you think it was not.
<jatenk> I will take it as that, a warning, and stop every comment in that matter. but I am still pointing out I find this reaction to my action sad, and harsh.
<Tox> yessir
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<Xiao> jatenk, you were banned because your line of conversation following the initiation of the topic of transsexuality was not just uncalled for, but also extremely creepy and off-setting to others.
<Xiao> Had it just been a non-sequitir, then you may have gotten off with a warning.
<jatenk> that’s why I stopped my participation in the first place, immediately.
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<jatenk> it was, btw.
<Xiao> Regardless of such, the actions that were performed required action on our part (#site19 operators)
<Xiao> It was not a non-sequitir.
<Xiao> It came to light as soon as one of the chatroom participants disclosed that they were transsexual.
<thedeadlymoose> jatenk, it's creepy as fuck. While you are welcome to continue discussing this, you don't get to convince us otherwise. We are telling you it was creepy as fuck, and if you do it again, you'll be permanently banned. Just want to be extremely clear on this. Also, don't try to bullshit us with "not giving me a warning is SOCIALISM" because I'm eventually going to ban you for that kind of goofy…
<thedeadlymoose> …trolling. (Where "eventually" is "as soon as it stops being funny")
<jatenk> the only possibility for you to take offense of such a statement is that general talk about sex is considered to be offensive. and I would really want to know why that would be the case.
<Xiao> jatenk, it's not that.
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<jatenk> it is very sad to me that such a statement is creepy for you.
<Xiao> It's not sad.
<thedeadlymoose> I am perfectly okay with that, jatenk.
<Soulless> jatenk
<Soulless> Going to be completely honest
<jatenk> if something like that is creepy for you, I am free to find that sad.
<thedeadlymoose> However, it doesn't mean you won't get permanently banned if you do anything like it again.
<Soulless> General sex talk isn't the fetishization of a group of marginalized people
<thedeadlymoose> Yes, you are perfectly free to find it sad
<thedeadlymoose> I don't have any objections to that.
<Soulless> If you find that we don't appreciate blatant fetishizing then w/e
<thedeadlymoose> Personally speaking, of course. I imagine others find it aggravating, which is also perfectly fine. :)
<Soulless> *if you find tht we don't appreciate blatant fetishizing to be sad then w/e
<jatenk> interesting. transsexualism is perfectly normal where I come from.
<Tox> thedeadlymoose: re: socialism, I think he meant "sociology and ethics as a touchstone for communication," and the language barrier got in the way
<Silber> jatenk: If the chat was talking about, for example, the population of China, and then someone hopped in, heard the phrase, and starting talking about how great sex is with Asian people, don't you think it would make some Asian people in the chat uncomfortable?
<thedeadlymoose> Tox: Possible.
<Quikngruvn> jatenk, where are you from?
<jatenk> germany.
<jatenk> if I would be asian, I would take it as a compliment, and if I said it, I would mean it as just that and nothing more.
<Quikngruvn> OK. Just wanted some context.
<jatenk> and I see no reason it should not be seen as something like that.
<ghostchibi> jatenk: I understand that you see it that light
<ghostchibi> however, to most people it wouldn't
<jatenk> besides, of course, blacklisting sex as a topic to talk about. which again is very, very sad for me.
<jatenk> ghostchibi: which is something greatly wrong with people.
<ghostchibi> it would look like degrading someone to being good at sex
<jatenk> „I like your hair.“ „So you tell me I’m fat??“ <- because ergo everything else must be bad.
<ghostchibi> jatenk: that doesn't even make sense
<ghostchibi> my point is
<jatenk> if saying someone would be good at sex degrades that someone to that, saying someone’s hair looks good would be degrading that someone to that.
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<ghostchibi> sex is far more complex than complimenting hair, jatenk
<jatenk> but if you compliment someone’s hair, you don’t mean you just like that, do you?
<Tuomey> jatenk: How old are you?
<jatenk> 20.
<jatenk> that was a simple example.
<ghostchibi> and especially when it comes to sex and trans people, who are regularly harassed about their genetalia and "how does trans have sex????"
<Xiao> A 20-year old knows better than that.
- Xiao is 20
<ghostchibi> it's rude
<ghostchibi> and demeaning
<jatenk> just complimenting someone about something whatever it is does not mean degrading him to just that, it’s just that just that just now came to my mine.
<Soulless> There's a difference between
<Soulless> saying someone's hair looks nice
<BearJoNNy> very true
<Soulless> and talking about how you would fuck hair in a conversation about, say, hair length
<BearJoNNy> it was insensitive
<Xiao> BearJonny
<Xiao> May I request that you not get involved?.
<BearJoNNy> sorry
<Xiao> Thank you.
<Xiao> IF you have no business in here, it is requested that you leave.
<jatenk> ghostchibi, that’s what it’s considered in „society. and that is just wrong. sex should be a topic to talk about like hair.
<ghostchibi> jatenk: right, well not everyone wants to
<BearJoNNy> Xiao: I was just banned
<BearJoNNy> I'm waiting for the topic to change
<BearJoNNy> so I can discuss
<Xiao> Alright.
<Xiao> Hang tight.
<jatenk> would you be offended if I said in my experience, most american people have great hair?
<Xiao> jatenk, I don't think you understand.
<ghostchibi> the same way not everyone wants to talk about it because it's considered something private
<ghostchibi> hair is not treated as a private matter
<ghostchibi> sex certainly is
<Xiao> Defining a group of people based on sexual performance is degrading.
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<Quikngruvn> I think there's some cultural divide as well.
<ghostchibi> probably
<Quikngruvn> I daresay Germany is not nearly as puritanical re: sex as the US.
<ghostchibi> still though
<jatenk> it it rude to talk about someone else’s sex, and you may be uncomfortable with me talking about mine. I did nothing of that, I just added „in my experience“ to be clear I don’t know if that is a fact for all.
<Quikngruvn> Yes. Still.
<ghostchibi> we don't want to hear about anyone's sex, jatenk
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<jatenk> yeah? I do. and many people I know do too. because it’s one of the most interesting topics in the world.
<jatenk> but maybe that’s why I know these people.
<ghostchibi> jatenk: but in HERE we don't want to hear about anyone's sex
<Soulless> Dude
<jatenk> I got that
<Eskobear> jatenk: As someone who's frequently fascinated with other people's sex lives, I still shut the fuck up about it in places where it's not appropriate.
<jatenk> that’s why I said to accept the ban and not talk about it anymore
<Soulless> The first thing you said about trans people is someone who likes to fuck them
<Eskobear> Because I understand it makes others uncomfortable.
<Tuomey> Do you have another point or are you going to continue repeating this?
<Soulless> Okay
<jatenk> Eskobear: I was not sure about that since what happened in farrecon. I hoped their sight on that topic would spread wider than on just one room in this server.
<jatenk> Soulless: how great of a compliment!
<Tox> jatenk: In your cultural context and specific set of social mores
<jatenk> Eskobear: yeah, I know there are people like that. I hoped this would not be one of those pleaces.
<Eskobear> You were incorrect.
<ghostchibi> jatenk: it is NOT a compliment to trans people to be called "great at sex" when that is all people degrade you to on a regular basis
<Tox> Now, there are other chats where you can talk about this stuff
<jatenk> obviosly.
<Tox> scpguntalk, for one
<Quikngruvn> Erm. Pretty sure we're trying to move away from basing a person's value on their sexual prowess.
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<Soulless> jatenk: if the first thing people mentioned about chinese people is how much sex chinese people are good at, as a chinese person I would feel as if I was being seen as a sex object and I wouldn't want to interact with you
<jatenk> ghostchibi: people degrade them to their genitals when they ask how they have sex, not to their sex.
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<ghostchibi> jatenk: people harass transfolk about their genetalia and about "what kind of sex they have"
<ghostchibi> and are fetishized regularly
<thedeadlymoose> Yup.
<jatenk> Soulless: and I would take it as a compliment and a challenge if you said that about germans.
<Echo> All that said…
<Echo> There's not really anything about this that changes the ban
<Echo> Or the reason for it
<ghostchibi> they have to hear about them and sex all the time, and that's all that people will say about them
<jatenk> I know several trans people (obviously). they always took statements like that as a compliment.
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<jatenk> seems I just had luck.
<Echo> And at this point, it's just wanking over the same discussion and flare-up that would have happened in 19
<Echo> So…
<ghostchibi> it doesn't matter that you meant it as a compliment, to these people in this chat, it's not a compliment
<Echo> ghostchibi: Keeping on with it isn't going to accomplish much
<jatenk> it was not meant as a compliment to anyone but just one.
<ghostchibi> jatenk: doesn't matter
<jatenk> and „these people“ took something as offensive they did not even have anything to do with.
<thedeadlymoose> …
<Eskobear> Guys, I think what Echo's trying to say is "Jatenk is banned, the issue is closed." I second this.
<Echo> jatenk: If there's nothing else you have any questions about, no one's going to just harp on with a debate
<thedeadlymoose> Alright.
<jatenk> dito.
<thedeadlymoose> I'm fucking done with this.
Please note that the next offense is a permanent ban, due to the excessive cluelessness and the fact that this involved creeper bullshit.
That's for any offense, by the way. If your first offense was creeper bullshit and you show no inclination to care about that — then you get a permanent ban next if you don't have one already. (Assuming no special mitigating circumstances.)
Please note that the next offense is a permanent ban
By "offense" can it mean "the next time he so much as even alludes to sex"? If the guy likes the topic so much, he can talk it somewhere else. I don't see anything here that demonstrates him possessing even a modicum of empathy for others on the chatroom, even the ops.
AFAIK, that is up to every individual OP to decide. Other OP or Moose intervention can override it, but I think that if he gets booted, no-one will shed a tear.
Yes, absolutely.
Even the current version of the chat guide points out that you'll eventually get banned for forcing us to listen to the details of your sex life.
EDIT: Note this doesn't apply to everyone else unless they individually act creepy as well, of course.
