TheRaven has been banned for 1 month, ending 12/7/16.
This was triggered by an altercation he had with Roxie in which both users used extremely insulting and inflammatory language towards each other, severely disrupting chat.
This would normally merit a 1 week ban in TheRaven's case. However, the ban length was extended, based on universal consensus from chat operators that TheRaven has repeatedly — and likely intentionally — baited Roxie, started shit in 19 in multiple ways (including repeatedly complaining that people were discussing things he did not approve of, typically trans issues, and typically when Roxie was involved in the conversation), tried to stop trans & gender issues from being discussed in 19 at all based on apparent personal preference against the discussion being allowed to take place, via disruptive arguing and complaining (I do not know if he has made statements publicly on this, so cannot elaborate; this is based on reports to me from ops). And finally, that he could and should have known that all of this was a serious problem.
Additionally, TheRaven's appeal (made before we had confirmed ban length) was judged to confirm this, including that he expressed the strong belief that he did little wrong (see logs).
With all this taken into account, operators judged that he did not appear likely to change his behavior quickly. It was judged that he was likely to be disruptive in similar ways in the future without a longer ban.
The issue of "ill intent" needs elaboration: It was judged likely based on operator observation that TheRaven may have intended to get Roxie banned and/or trans issues banned via disruption of #site19 (similar to how many users have recently acted). However, not all operators were certain that his intent went this far; therefore this was only one factor in judgement, though it likely influenced the ban vote. Several operators in fact explicitly rejected this line of reasoning, but still voted for a month in length for the other reasons listed.
This is not a final step in ban acceleration. The next step is not permanent ban. The length is intended for the user to cool off and give him the opportunity to re-evaluate his behavior.
It is also to calm 19 down, because honestly, it is currently completely miserable for people to deal with 19 these days, for many reasons, but mostly reasons that boil down to 'disruption'. Other users who are significantly disruptive may also face longer bans (but conversely also given more chances to improve).
Additionally: These incidents have not been logged to my satisfaction. We do use operator reports and their judgment to enact bans. However, the degree to which incidents relating to TheRaven are not logged is very concerning to me. It will likely not affect this ban, but it would almost certainly affect any future disciplinary action for TheRaven — and that means we need logs. So if any operator can procure any logs of incidents regarding TheRaven that fall under what's discussed here, please post them.
We have a log problem. Most operators who usually log things have not been able to do so recently, due to technical issues. We need to figure out a way to resolve this, or we will be reliant on user reports, which allows users to alter logs to their own satisfaction and potentially game the system, or get us to unfairly enforce rules excessively on only specific people of their choice, compared to other users who do not get reported.
Second Warning: I am informed that TheRaven was warned to stop complaining that people were discussing things he did not approve of, sometime recently. This warning was never logged. I was only able to confirm it, in fact, through TheRaven himself. See above RE: logging.
Incident 11/5/16
23:19 AidenEldritch how are you Esheter
23:19 TheRaven No, I think the constant dragging it in here and starting arguments over non-issues is irritating, pointless and suggests you're just trolling.
23:19 Esheter I' m doing goo
23:20 Esheter *good
23:20 *** TheRaven left #site19 nodnol.fo.rewot|nevar.a#nodnol.fo.rewot|nevar.a
23:20 Roxie TheRaven: Do you think I am a troll for talking about transgender issues?
23:20 Esheter Haven't been here for a while
23:20 Lily Roxie: he ded
Because there is no god, these are the extent of the logs, and no one's been able to send us the full logs. They do demonstrate a rules violation in an obvious attack on Roxie (as well as backseat modding). However, we cannot see how the argument began (I believe TheRaven claims that Roxie began this altercation; he claimed that she has begun all altercations involving him, without exception).
Incident 11/6/2016 (???) This was actually someone wishing to report Roxie. As above, no one has been able to produce full logs. Only responses to TheRaven are recorded here. I am told by operators that he did engage in an unnecessary altercation here.
7:17 PM <Roxie> I didn't because people would've called me out as argumentative
7:17 PM <Lily> TheRaven: feel free to just not take part
7:18 PM <Roxie> TheRaven: The best way to not talk about it is to not comment on it saying "UGH WHY IS THERE ALWAYS ARGUING" despite it not being arguing.
7:18 PM → dingus joined (moc.duolccri.notlrahc.6821A545-CRInys|396781diu#moc.duolccri.notlrahc.6821A545-CRInys|396781diu)
7:18 PM <AidenEldritch> hi dingus
7:18 PM <Tutwater> By "all-male research team" let it be known that I meant "research team consisting of individuals in possession of penises, pituitary glands and XY chromosomal pairs
7:18 PM <Docmaster16> That is an interesting name.
7:18 PM <Roxie> If you think all discussion of trans peoples is argumentative, then you are a transphobe, and are a shithead
Other Incidents: I am told there were other incidents, by chat ops, which they chose not to log (as is typical; we do not log everything). However, I'm putting this here because I would like those to be logged, please, if possible.
Incident 11/7/2016 (Resulted In Ban)
<Roxie> I would rather Pence die than be in office.
<Roxie> Genuinely and truly.
<Cimmerian> Roxie: That's a bit far.
<Roxie> Cimmerian: Is it?
<CaptainOctavia> That's a bit harsh, I never wish death upon anyone.
<Cimmerian> It is.
<Roxie> He wants to torture millions of people.
<Roxie> The death of one is nothing to that.
<CaptainOctavia> Doesn't mean he can actually legally do that
<Silber> Kaine is awkward and kinda shrill but he's still right
<Roxie> CaptainOctavia: He can legalize it, though.
<Roxie> Oh wait.
<Roxie> It's already fucking legal.
<Cimmerian> You're over simplifying the issue. Pence is wrong, very much so… but pushing for his death is the wrong solution.
<Silber> Pence looks like Race Bannon and wants you to be tortured
<Roxie> And it has caused thousands of suicide.
<Roxie> Cimmerian: Tell that to Leelah Alcorn.
<Roxie> Oh wait.
<Roxie> You can't.
<CaptainOctavia> So anyone voting for republicans are by extension legalizing it?
<Solo> yeah like, 90% of conversion therapy "patients" kill themselves
<Dr_Leonard> I wouldn't kill Pence
<Dr_Leonard> but I wouldn't be sad if he died
<Solo> CaptainOctavia: yES
<Silber> Cimmerian: to be fair that's not "pushing for his death" so much as being okay with it
<CaptainOctavia> I definitely don't want him to legalize it but I don't want him dead
<Roxie> Yeah don't get me wrong
<Silber> CaptainOctavia: it's already legal
<Roxie> I wouldn't KILL him
<Roxie> But if he died
<Roxie> I'd lose no sleep.
<Silber> he has a record of supporting it in Indiana
<Roxie> In fact, I'd feel America was a safer country.
<Silber> Clinton wants to ban it
<TheRaven> Silber: will never happen.
<GamingVolt> JackIke 10/10 quote
<Roxie> TheRaven: It's already legal, numbnuts.
<Silber> TheRaven: what, banning it?
<CaptainOctavia> Me neither, but I really can't call myself a liberal while wishing death on him
<Cimmerian> Silber: "Roxie: I would rather Pence die than be in office." That line is not different enough to draw the distinction you're saying it does.
<Solo> A red vote this election is a vote passively endorsing racism, misogyny, Islamophobia, etc
<Apoplexic> Roxie: Would you post a #DeathTo meme on social media for him if it were spreading?
<DolphinSlugchugger> what do you mean
<DolphinSlugchugger> pence is already dead to me
<TheRaven> Yeah, it's /never/ going to happen on a federal level. Not a chance in hell.
<Cimmerian> But alright. We've moved on from wishing for the death of a person.
<DolphinSlugchugger> a walking fucking corpse
<Roxie> Apoplexic: Maybe? I don't know.
<Apoplexic> Roxie: That's non-spoilered synopsis of one of the S3 episodes.
<Daily-SCP> uggGH PENCE THINKS THAT HIV IS A GAY THING
<Roxie> TheRaven: Hey excuse me it already happens world-fucking-wide
<Daily-SCP> oh oh god
<Daily-SCP> ohhh god I'm reading about pence and
<Silber> Cimmerian: I would rather the Columbine shooters have died than killed multiple people
<TheRaven> Roxie: try actually /reading/ what I said
<Daily-SCP> I can see why everyone is so scared
<CaptainOctavia> Conversion therapy is legal where I live but since I live in canada that's really only a technicality
<Roxie> TheRaven: Try caring about gay people. Asshole.
<TheRaven> Roxie: I'm saying a federal ban will never happen, you fucking nitwit
<Silber> Roxie, TheRaven is talking about a /ban/
<Silber> not the thing
<minmin> woah jeez
<Solo> guys
<Cimmerian> Silber: That's a comparison without merit. "Die rather than kill" vs. "die rather than take office"
<CaptainOctavia> omg
<DolphinSlugchugger> the supreme court seems like it could do something
<SpookyBee> Ops, here.
<TyGently> Hey. Both of you, take a step back.
<Silber> Also, stop with the namecalling.
<the_xenomorph666> damn it, they blocked twitch
<Panteradactyl> Does anyone else sometimes think that we were originally genetically engineered by aliens to be a slave-race?
<Solo> no
<AidenEldritch> Pantera what
<CaptainOctavia> ^
<Roxie> TheRaven: It can and should.
<CaptainOctavia> I think we are actually aliens b/c our dna came from an asteroid and evolved
<Cimmerian> panteradactyl: Since science can pretty much confirm we come from this planet, I'd go with no.
<CaptainOctavia> or comet whatever
<DolphinSlugchugger> executive orders
<weryllium> Panteradactyl? Wha-huh? no.
<weryllium> Unless that's a skip idea.
* thedeadlymoose sets mode +m on #site19
* thedeadlymoose sets ban on *!*@tower.of.london
<minmin> I don't know enough about the federal process to say if the death penalty can be banned in the US but let's not do namecalling
* thedeadlymoose has kicked TheRaven from #site19 (We'll sort you out in a bit.)
* thedeadlymoose sets ban on *!*@4DEB4C1B:1299769F:A9BCCF55:IP
* thedeadlymoose has kicked Roxie from #site19 (We'll sort you out in a bit.)
That's the extent of our logs from 19. These, along with operator reports (unlogged, as I said), were the basis for the month-long ban.
Appeal follows.
[2016-11-07 16:50:59] <djkaktus> thedeadlymoose, theraven has asked me to let you know that, as far as he's concerned, you can PM him whenever you're finished reading logs.
[2016-11-07 16:51:11] <thedeadlymoose> djkaktus: I will do so.
[Time passes.]
[2016-11-07 18:42:26] -->| TheRaven (nodnol.fo.rewot|nevar.a#nodnol.fo.rewot|nevar.a) has joined #site17
[2016-11-07 18:45:17] <thedeadlymoose> Roxie: Are you present?
[2016-11-07 18:45:21] <Roxie> I am
[2016-11-07 18:45:49] <thedeadlymoose> TheRaven: Does your request not to talk about this until we have resolved the situation still stand?
[2016-11-07 18:45:59] <thedeadlymoose> I ask because you have rejoined 17
[2016-11-07 18:46:11] <TheRaven> I'm here to appeal my ban, not argue.
[2016-11-07 18:46:27] * thedeadlymoose nods.
[2016-11-07 18:48:12] <thedeadlymoose> Based on a coin flip, TheRaven, you have the floor. I am going to temporarily silence the chat except for you and chat operators (so going to temporarily devoice you, Roxie, accordingly). If anyone has input, please PM an operator of your choice or wait til the chat is unmuted
[2016-11-07 18:48:19] =-= Mode #site17 +v TheRaven by thedeadlymoose
[2016-11-07 18:48:27] =-= Mode #site17 -v Roxie by thedeadlymoose
[2016-11-07 18:48:31] =-= Mode #site17 +m by thedeadlymoose
[2016-11-07 18:48:37] <thedeadlymoose> Go ahead, TheRaven
[2016-11-07 18:48:50] <thedeadlymoose> ops, be pinged, please
[2016-11-07 18:49:00] <TheRaven> Uh, what. I see no reason this needs to be a /debate/
[2016-11-07 18:49:17] <thedeadlymoose> I'm doing this so that people do not make it a debate, as happened earlier
[2016-11-07 18:54:22] <--| TheRaven has left #site17
[2016-11-07 18:55:49] <thedeadlymoose> I see.
[2016-11-07 18:55:52] =-= Mode #site17 -m by thedeadlymoose
[Time passes.]
[2016-11-07 19:34:49] -->| TheRaven (nodnol.fo.rewot|nevar.a#nodnol.fo.rewot|nevar.a) has joined #site17
[2016-11-07 19:48:12] <TheRaven> Hello?
[2016-11-07 19:49:10] <thedeadlymoose> Hello, TheRaven
[2016-11-07 19:49:16] <thedeadlymoose> Do you wish me to take your appeal or someone else
[2016-11-07 19:50:09] <TheRaven> Someone else, and I'd like to actually appeal it in a way consistent with the process, not be dragged into a debate.
[2016-11-07 19:51:01] <thedeadlymoose> ops
[2016-11-07 19:51:44] <thedeadlymoose> Also, you were not dragged into a debate. Everything has been standard so far except the length of time you've had to wait before hearing what the decision on your ban length is, for which I apologize.
[2016-11-07 19:51:47] <TyGently> Hello.
[2016-11-07 19:54:33] <TheRaven> TyGently: put simply, I think that my ban is unreasonable, as I was only replying in kind. I didn't start the argument, I tried to clarify what I meant, and I didn't start the name-calling.
[2016-11-07 19:57:35] <TyGently> You were needlessly incendiary and moving in the direction of rapid escalation, regardless of who particularly started it. Also taken into account is your history of argument escalation, particularly with Roxie.
[2016-11-07 19:58:20] <TheRaven> Who has a history of being incredibly aggressive towards me (and numerous other users), note the incident last week.
[2016-11-07 20:00:11] <TheRaven> This is at least the second time this week that she has needlessly escalated things based on a simple one-off comment from me, as well as throwing frankly insulting accusations.
[2016-11-07 20:02:41] <TyGently> Apparent aggression coming from one end does not excuse or mitigate escalation on your end. Your part in the discussion was to escalate it further both in intensity and to a personal level.
[2016-11-07 20:04:35] <TheRaven> I think jumping from "Clinton is sketchy" to "You must hate minorities" is escalation enough on its own, that speaks for itself
[2016-11-07 20:08:49] <TyGently> In the past, you have also antagonized or acted in an accusatory fashion towards Roxie. The fact of the matter is, what you believe justifies your behavior is in the end far less important than your behavior itself and the environment it creates or harms for other chat users.
[2016-11-07 20:10:39] <TheRaven> …defending myself is antagonizing?
[2016-11-07 20:11:13] <TyGently> The part that you have played in this argument, and in noted arguments in the past, is major, in your tendency to escalate or in some cases even bait others into reacting. This is not conducive to any kind of environment where discourse may occur.
[2016-11-07 20:16:34] <TheRaven> My intention was never to bait, or even get into the ongoing political arguments
[2016-11-07 20:20:14] <TheRaven> And there was very little actual discussion taking place until someone (not always me) made any comments that could be remotely interpreted as being opposed to the political beliefs of the active people at the time
[2016-11-07 20:21:29] <TheRaven> And for the record, at /no point/ earlier did I say or even imply that I agreed at all with conversion therapy
[2016-11-07 20:27:00] <TyGently> Your statement was vague and was interpreted as making an inaccurate or supportive statement about conversion therapy, and then dismissing the issue. You responded to this perceived slight with further personal attacks.
[2016-11-07 20:27:25] <TheRaven> I tried to clarify, which was met with personal attacks
[2016-11-07 20:27:46] <TheRaven> And saying a federal ban on it will never happen is not vague at all
[2016-11-07 20:28:10] <TyGently> You did not. The statement I'm referring to is this one, "<TheRaven> Roxie: I'm saying a federal ban will never happen, you fucking nitwit"
[2016-11-07 20:28:54] <TheRaven> Which was /after/ she accused me of having issues with gay people and called me and asshole
[2016-11-07 20:28:55] <TheRaven> *an
[2016-11-07 20:30:18] <TheRaven> Which, yeah, that was poorly-worded. But I do /not/ like it when people repeatedly accuse me of things
[2016-11-07 20:30:49] <TyGently> And the statement before that was this, "<TheRaven> Roxie: try actually /reading/ what I said". You have been needlessly inflammatory and insulting, and in the past you have demonstrated at best a distaste and at worst a disregard for trans issues, such that it has reached this point.
[2016-11-07 20:31:16] <TheRaven> I have distaste for constant discussion of trans issues in #site19 to the drowning out of everything else
[2016-11-07 20:33:18] =-= SpookyBee is now known as SnoozleBee
[2016-11-07 20:36:03] <TheRaven> As it is, I fully intend to put certain users on my /ignore list when my ban is up
[2016-11-07 20:37:07] <TyGently> It is not on you to moderate the discussions of site19, and it is absolutely not on you to force certain discussions out and make ruckus whenever the topic is brought up again.
[2016-11-07 20:37:50] <TheRaven> Which is why whenever discussions get heated, I do call for op attention either here or in 19
[2016-11-07 20:39:36] <TyGently> If using /ignore will assist you in avoiding future incidents, I would heavily advise it, as they will not be tolerated.
[2016-11-07 20:40:16] <TheRaven> I plan to. And I'm avoiding the political arguments as well, with any luck after this week that will calm down
[2016-11-07 20:41:45] <TheRaven> And assuming she doesn't have me blocked already, I'd like to apologize for earlier to Roxie, and clarify that I don't support conversion therapy in any way
[2016-11-07 20:42:02] <Roxie> It's cool dog
[2016-11-07 20:42:09] <Roxie> I was more worried about you supporting anybody who did
[2016-11-07 20:43:17] <TheRaven> I'm Canadian, I don't support any of the mess down south. Y'all could elect Vermin Supreme for all I care XD
[2016-11-07 20:44:33] <TyGently> Please, let's remain focused.
[2016-11-07 20:45:08] <TyGently> I appreciate any reconciliation, but let's finish this appeal.
[2016-11-07 20:45:36] <TheRaven> Of course, I was assuming you were about to deliver whatever verdict you had
[2016-11-07 20:49:16] <TyGently> Not quite yet. I want to bring up, from a previous incident, you said, to Roxie, "No, I think the constant dragging (of trans issues) in here and starting arguments over non-issues is irritating, pointless and suggests you're just trolling." Parenthetical is mine, in lieu of context.
[2016-11-07 20:50:55] <TyGently> Earlier in this appeal, you stated that you try not to get involved in these discussions, that you've not been accusatory, or dismissive of trans issues. I believe it is important to bring this instance up because if you do not understand why you are being banned, you have very little chance to gain anything from it.
[2016-11-07 20:52:36] <TheRaven> I fail to understand what connection that has to what was at issue here, or earlier this week even
[2016-11-07 20:55:20] <thedeadlymoose> To clarify, without stepping in: Both you and Roxie are having your recent behavioral patterns considered. Not just this incident.
[2016-11-07 20:55:30] <thedeadlymoose> (Carry on. I happened to tab in because I'm dealing with Roxie's appeal in upscroll.)
[2016-11-07 20:56:56] <TyGently> Yes. The issues are more widespread than simply what happened today. What this quote shows is your attitude towards chat which has been causing issues, and conflicts with what you said earlier in the appeal. The issue here is not simply that you acted badly today.
[2016-11-07 21:07:56] <TyGently> TheRaven, are you still there?
[2016-11-07 21:08:32] <TheRaven> yes
[2016-11-07 21:13:24] <TheRaven> Is there more to what you were saying?
[2016-11-07 21:16:22] <TyGently> I believe I've given enough for you to consider, at leat. I believe, then, we've neared the end of what can be discussed here.
[2016-11-07 21:16:30] <TyGently> *at least
[2016-11-07 21:17:50] <TheRaven> Yep. I'll keep quiet on the subject, and avoid getting into politics
[2016-11-07 21:19:10] <TyGently> Alright. The ban is upheld, you will be notified of its length when everything has been fully sorted.
[2016-11-07 21:19:39] <TheRaven> AFAIK, 24 hours would be the standard.
[2016-11-07 21:20:07] <TheRaven> If not just a final warning
[2016-11-07 21:23:53] <TyGently> It is still under discussion. Past behavior is being heavily taken into account, and an effort is being made to ensure this will be the last of such incidents in the future. Until then, I'd advise you to wait.
[Time passes.]
[2016-11-07 22:30:15] <TheRaven> So…
[2016-11-07 22:31:49] <thedeadlymoose> …
[2016-11-07 22:31:53] <thedeadlymoose> Did no one complete your appeal?
[2016-11-07 22:31:59] <thedeadlymoose> Actual question.
[2016-11-07 22:32:01] <thedeadlymoose> TyGently: Are you here?
[2016-11-07 22:34:37] <TheRaven> I don't have the ban length yet
[2016-11-07 22:34:43] <TyGently> The appeal was completed. He is waiting on confirmation of ban length.
[2016-11-07 22:34:59] <thedeadlymoose> TyGently, please check op chat.
[2016-11-07 22:43:00] <TheRaven> As far as I'm aware, on standard policy it should be none or 24 hours
[2016-11-07 22:49:49] <Dexanote> TheRaven, I apologize, I sent via Jarvis, I wasn't aware you were still here.
[2016-11-07 22:49:54] <Dexanote> You are banned for one month from Site19. This is a cooldown period because of your recent string of aggressive behaviour, and the fact that you still don't believe you're doing anything wrong. This is not a permaban, nor is the next step a permaban. This length of ban is to try to cool down all parties here.
[2016-11-07 22:50:10] <TheRaven> …one month. Are you fucking with me?
[2016-11-07 22:50:15] <Dexanote> I am not.
[2016-11-07 22:50:38] <--| TheRaven has left #site17
[2016-11-07 22:50:45] <Dexanote> Roxie is receiving the same ban, b-
[End of log.]
After this, Dexanote and I spoke to TheRaven extensively in a side chat. As this is a private side chat, it will not be logged here. However, I've informed him of everything in this post (and in much more depth).
The main relevant issue is that: Because TheRaven made his first appeal solely on being banned at all, without knowing that he would be banned for a long period of time, he is allowed to make a second appeal.
TheRaven's ban will not be lifted entirely; that was his first appeal, which has been denied. However, the ban may or may not be shortened at the discretion of other operators (no less than 1 week, to match standard escalation and to ensure at least some cool-off period).
Due to the extent to which I ended up handling this particular incident, I will not be taking such an appeal (nor voting on one). However, any other operator — and preferably an administrator — may take TheRaven's second appeal if he chooses to make one, and his ban may be commuted to any length at or above 1 week (or not be commuted at all, and stay at one month) depending on what operator consensus agrees.
To keep things simple, any such vote to commute should take place on O5 (so any appeal should be posted here).
Now-Standard Caveat: Wrote this while horribly exhausted at 2AM. Please feel free to correct my errors.