Might be a problem

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Might be a problem

Adam Smascher 19 May 2012 17:45

A lot of you are probably already aware of the issues that have been occurring with the wiki as of late. Lag, double/triple posts, posts not showing, and the Series 2 page locking up and becoming uneditable temporarily being the main ones, as well as some more minor glitches like counters failing to update properly. This, combined with a few other facts, such as Nala having managed to lock up a database and forcing a server restart, seems like an ill omen.

The short of it is, people more knowledgeable than I have expressed concern that these are symptoms of Wikidot entering death throes, or at the very least, we are seriously testing their capacity. In either case, we need to GTFO, and the current timetable, or more specifically total lack thereof, is exceedingly risky.

I know, there are currently a total of two people working on a show site, one of which is hiking the Appalachians. However, why and how we find ourselves fucked won't change our level of fuckedness. So we need to decide if this is actually a significant risk (I think it is) and if so, figure out how to get off Wikidot before we find ourselves up Shit Creek.

I told Murphy to apply to this site so he could explain things. He has a much better understanding of tech stuff than I do.

Re: Might be a problem

Eskobar 19 May 2012 17:56

I'm going to preface this by saying I know nothing about programming, hence many of these questions.

1. What's our worst-case scenario? What exactly happens if Wikidot "dies" on us? I hear frequent reference to site backups; how often is this done, and how quickly can we come back if we need to reboot the site (so to speak) from those backups?

2. What's our best alternative? I assume we're talking about finding a new wiki farm, rather than the show site project, so what's the best option we have in that area, in terms of maintaining current site functionality at as close to 100% as possible?

3. What's our fastest alternative? If this is a crisis situation, might we have to consider jumping to a less-than-perfect alternative as a stopgap measure rather than lose everything?

Other than that, I'm all for this. We've bounced the idea of a move back and forth for months (well, the idea has been bounced; I have had no personal part in said bouncing to date) and consensus seems to be "yeah, we should definitely do that sometime". Well, time may be shorter than we thought. We can debate the relative merits of different actions ad infinitum, but the question remains: if it happens that we have to move now, what's our next step?

Re: Might be a problem

Adam Smascher 19 May 2012 18:19

If Wikidot dies on us, we probably don't lose a ton as far as core content goes. I'm not sure on the frequency, but there's at least four people I believe do backups regularly - that is, Mack, Troy, Bland, and Sophos. However, if Wikidot dies before we have a replacement in place, the community is scattered. There's no way around that.

As far as how quickly we come back, I have no idea. We need a hosting solution first. The other wiki software we've looked at doesn't support a lot of functionality we require, and would take just as much effort to beat into a form usable by us as it would to write from scratch.

As for the fastest alternative, that would probably be biting the bullet and dealing with a wiki that only kinda sorta works for our purposes.

Re: Might be a problem

Dr Gears 19 May 2012 21:56

This is…troubling. We are getting buckets of traffic, but could we switch to something that could handle the traffic without issue? I just wonder that, with the "new site" being more or less under construction, would a more timely shift be helpful or harmful?

Re: Might be a problem

Kain Pathos Crow 20 May 2012 00:07

Well, if push comes to shove, we could always do the unthinkable. Do a donation run and hire a webmaster, server space, domain name, the works, or at least whatever we can't scrounge from the user base.

I mean, if we do it right, considering the traffic we have, there is always the possibility of getting ads in order to pay for hosting. And we could always get a decent webmaster from site folks or summat.

Again, this is just an idea I'm throwing out there in case of emergency, though I doubt it will come to that.

But yeah, a timely shift might be nice. I'd suggest possibly hiring a professional web designer to make us a site and software, or at the very least, give us an estimate. Check into server space, and I think one of the guys has definitely got some SCP styled domain names held…

Re: Might be a problem

Quikngruvn 20 May 2012 04:00

Hmm. Assuming that we have a viable backup (I know Mackenzie's method creates an archive that can be imported into various flavors of software), it wouldn't be overly difficult to recover the site's content elsewhere. The fastest method of recovery would be to restore an archive to a static website (rather than to a wiki that would need user accounts and permissions administered). We may lose some or all metadata, or some or all of the forum, or (worst case) some or (worstest case) all content. (No, take that back— we won't lose all content. Even if we had to roll back to 2009 via the Internet Wayback Machine.)

Now, what's the best alternative? For this particular issue (the risk that Wikidot suddenly chokes on its own tongue, rendering the site unavailable), probably the best thing to do would be to set up a mirror: an external site to which we write the contents of the wiki on a regular basis. For the sake of expediency, we would probably have to ignore all the bells and whistles we want, but as long as the content is copied elsewhere, we can bounce back.

Re: Might be a problem

Communism will win 20 May 2012 17:30

I'm personally less worried about loss of content than I am about a loss of a good way to keep the community functional. If there's anything people around here are good at, it's making more content.

What I'm worried about is the potential loss of the forum if this hits us before we have a fully functional backup wiki. Taking into account the 75-odd people on #site19 and the maybe 15 or so people in the RPs who aren't included in that first group, the loss of the wiki would still leave a lot of people in the dark and/or unable to continue to participate in the community if we didn't have forums for them to congregate. I can only imagine that we'd have a bit of a Humpty Dumpty situation if we didn't have a place they could regroup pretty soon afterwards. I vaguely recall Adam Smascher talking about the importance of forums elsewhere, so maybe I'm just parroting him.

So, point is, whatever solution we get, we need content and a forum, and of course a way to get the message out to people where they need to go.

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if your reading this your gay

Re: Might be a problem

Dr Gears 21 May 2012 12:17

I second this as well. While i personally haven't bumped in to anything odd yet, i can understand the concern. I've tried to reach out to the WikiDot staff, but they've often been slow to respond, so…we'll see what they have to say.

But yes, i think the major concern with this is less the content, as we have many backups, and more the damage to the community. So some kind of forum structure may be the primary concern at this point.

Also, a thought that just struck me…if we do migrate our stories…how do we keep the correct "credit" with everyone? Now, except for the oldest entries, we can just look back and see who posted them. How would we keep track during a migration, where most likely only a few people would be "posting" the majority of the entries?

Re: Might be a problem

Photosynthetic 21 May 2012 17:35

If we want to be absolutely sure that we'll keep the community together, I think one of the best things we can do is make an announcement right now on the forums. Tell people that we've been having issues, there's nothing to worry about, but that if the worst should happen and we lose the Wikidot, to meet up on #site19 for instructions on where to go.

If nothing else, that way we'll be sure that everyone knows where to meet up should we be scattered — and I don't really see SynIRC crashing on us. (It might be a good idea to register an alternate #site19 on a different server, though, just in case…)

Re: Might be a problem

Eskobar 21 May 2012 17:45

Seconding any or all components of this. We might set up a stopgap secondary forums system on another site now, with no intention of using it permanently but just as a place the community can go temporarily in case everything goes pear-shaped. We don't even have to disclose the location of it; just put out (like Photo said) an announcement on the forums saying "if you come here one day and there's nothing here anymore, go to #site19 for further instructions" where they would then be redirected to the new forums location. That would give the community somewhere to congregate while the rest of us, I suppose, build a completely new site for permanent residency.

We might consider just having a channel on synIRC for such an emergency, one without +R set up for ease of access just to convey the information of where the new forums are and what the situation is, #scpmeltdown or something similar. Additionally, we might compile a list of other websites that discuss or refer people to us- -places like SA, TvTropes, the CB forums, etc.- -where we can publish a short document saying "our website went full Chernobyl, but you can come here for right now."

All in all, I really hope none of this proves necessary.

Re: Might be a problem

Pig_catapult 21 May 2012 22:39

I could toss a Zetaboards up for us pretty easily. Should I do that now? It probably won't be the prettiest thing in the world, but it'll do its job (making skins for zetaboards forums is a pain in the ass).

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Piffy is an SCP Foundation Moderator, Lv. 9001 Squishy Wizard, and Knight of the Red Pen.

Last edited on 21 May 2012 22:41 by Pig_catapult Show more

Re: Might be a problem

Quikngruvn 22 May 2012 01:39

We do already have an external website available (it currently just has an empty wiki and forum on it) that we could use Just In Case. Heck, I think I can set up a forum in a directory that shouldn't be affected by whatever testing and designing we do.

Re: Might be a problem

Dr Gears 22 May 2012 02:02

If we could keep it on the site we already have in the works, that would be great. If you get something together that's more or less sane, we could post a "emergency lifeboat" notice on what to do if the wiki bombs for some reason. Hopefully won't be an issue, but it might help keep folks calm…or make it worse, depending.

Re: Might be a problem

DrEverettMann 21 May 2012 21:43

Has anyone contacted Wikidot about the problem yet?

Re: Might be a problem

Quikngruvn 22 May 2012 01:37

Not as of yet, because I'd like to be able to provide more detailed information about what's happened. I tracked down some of the double-posting incidents (and recorded when they happened), but all I know about the edit-locks and the database crashing is what Nus put up there. If anyone knows what happened and when, I'll add it to what I've got for double-posting and compile it into something for… bug feedback? (I know it's not a bug, but I haven't found a more appropriate venue yet.)

So far I have found double-posting incidents from around these times (all EDT):

• 14 May around 17:00, and again around 21:00
• 16 May around 12:00
• 19 May from about 07:30 to about 09:30

There may be more— I'll look some more in a bit.

Re: Might be a problem

Communism will win 22 May 2012 02:11

I've seen a few multiple post incidents, but it didn't occur to me to record them before deleting the duplicate posts. I'll add whatever I find to this post.

Times are US Central Time because I fucking suck at time zones:

• 22 May at 0900

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if your reading this your gay

Last edited on 22 May 2012 14:52 by Communism will win Show more

Re: Might be a problem

Dexanote 23 May 2012 03:13

• May 22, ~11:10 PM EST.

Re: Might be a problem

Eskobar 23 May 2012 13:32

I see between three and six a day, usually too many to actually mention. And that's with me being on only a couple of hours a day lately. Yesterday, it double-posted me when I know for a fact that I only hit the button once, since I know not to hit it repeatedly when it's lagging. So it really is a flaw or series of flaws in Wikidot programming.

Re: Might be a problem

Dexanote 31 May 2012 19:39

May 31, triple post by Roget in the 682/Tarasque story. ~712 GMT -4

Re: Might be a problem

Quikngruvn 25 May 2012 12:32

Issue posted. It looked like the best place to put it that I could find.

Re: Might be a problem

murphy_slaw 29 May 2012 02:35

Wikidot claims they've fixed the performance problems.

Bare minimum, this buys us some time.

I don't know if this changes anyone's opinion about the site migration plan. (It doesn't for me, but I am probably not the most unbiased observer.)

Re: Might be a problem

Adam Smascher 29 May 2012 07:58

I think we should continue full speed ahead with the migration plan. We've got a decent amount of momentum behind it at this point, have a good idea of what we need to do and how we need to do it, and it will be necessary eventually. It doesn't make sense to procrastinate with something this important.

Re: Might be a problem

Photosynthetic 29 May 2012 17:50

Agreed.

Re: Might be a problem

murphy_slaw 30 May 2012 19:12

Aaand, nearly every issue they claim to have fixed is still occurring.

Bland and I posted to the issue page and they've marked it as re-opened.

Re: Might be a problem

Adam Smascher 23 May 2012 03:39

I'm thinking we need to talk to Wikidot and get the backup forums up ASAP. I don't see anything to be gained by waiting. Preferably the backup forums would be hosted on the future replacement site, and I'd like to see them running within a week. Is this doable? I'm afraid if we talk about it and don't set hard goals it'll just stay talk and fall by the wayside.

Ideally, this stopgap also needs to be capable of handling the load we're already getting. It'd be all kinds of hilarious and awful if our stopgap bit it because it couldn't take the strain.

Re: Might be a problem

AdminBright 23 May 2012 04:48

So, I'm not so good with the coding side of things, I'll just say I support any moves, and do whatever i can to help. Apparently aelanna has something fun in the works?

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Admin, SCP Wiki

Re: Might be a problem

Quikngruvn 23 May 2012 11:14

Ask and ye shall receive, Nus: http://www.scp-foundation.com/site44/index.php

I set this up last night, with an initial pass through the configuration settings, but it still needs some configurating to become reasonably functional, let alone pretty. The site should be able to handle the load (that's why we picked this host, right? 'Cos it can handle the traffic?) and space for uploads and attachments shouldn't be an issue.

Re: Might be a problem

Adam Smascher 23 May 2012 12:00

Good stuff. If there's anything I can do to help get it completely functional, which I doubt due to lack of knowledge about this sort of thing, I'll gladly help as I'm able. I'm not too concerned about it looking pretty, at least at the moment, just configured into a usable state.

I'm told there's a way to message all members of a site simultaneously. Once we get this forum good to go, I think we should do that, stick up a notice on the front page, and make a note in 19's topic so everyone knows where to go.

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