Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

Summary:

It met the requirements before canons were a thing and got overlooked. It's time to correct that.

Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

Modern_Erasmus 22 Oct 2017 06:15

So, you may or may not have heard of Project Heimdall. It's a "collaborative writing project" created a year before canons were a thing by Hornby, with the theme of the Foundation's preparations for and interactions with extraterrestrial intelligences. It has 5 tales by 4 authors in addition to the hub, as well as 4 skips set in its universe by an additional 4 authors.

Now lets look at the requirements for something to be a canon:

A minimum of five tales written.

check

A minimum of three authors writing the tales.

check

Your canon cannot be "closed" to other, new contributors.

From the hub page: "Who can participate in Project Heimdall?
Anyone! If something strikes your fancy, write it up."

Your canon cannot be "finished."

The hub makes no mention of an end goal and in fact implies a lack of such via Hornby's thoughts on the endless number of episodic storylines that could fit into the project.

So, this should be a canon. As far as I can tell, the only reason it isn't already is because its older than canons as a concept and Troy forgot about it/didn't know about it when he was making the canon hub for the entries of the new years canon contest in 2013. Here is a post from Roget all the way back in 2014 that proposed making it a canon as a part of a tag revamp, a notion seconded by Eskobar. However, the thread was derailed by Aelanna and nothing was done regarding Heimdall's status.

I brought this up in 17 a week ago and was told that it wouldn't be considered a canon because Hornby didn't name it a canon, even though canons didn't exist at the time and this was pretty expressly the exact intent of what a canon was. ARD did tell me that I could start a discussion on the subject, hence this post. However, precedent here as well as Hornby's own statement in the hub that "he's not "running" things in any sort of formal, moderating, or administrative way" suggests that it shouldn't matter whether it was proactively declared a canon by its inactive creator. Rather, we should recognize it fits both the stated requirements and the express spirit of a canon, and feature it on the canon hub so that it can attract the notice it deserves. I pmed Hornby for his input a week ago, but he didn't respond.

(side note: while looking through the tag masterlist to make this post I noticed the Resurrection tag was listed under tale series instead of canons, someone with permission should probably fix that.)

Last edited on 22 Oct 2017 06:17 by Modern_Erasmus Show more

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

Doctor Cimmerian 22 Oct 2017 08:36

If you PM'd Hornby only a week ago I think it's a little early to skip the step of figuring out what the author wants to do.

Outside of Hornby's or any author in the project making a direct request, I'd say this should be held off on. The precedent referenced is about things that are already canons. Since this isn't a canon, the author or authors could come back at any time and change those parameters and/or allowances and should have the right to do so.

It's important to remember that a "canon" has certain things that you must do… And you can't "go back" to before it was a canon. These authors did not and could not possibly know that at the time.

Absent a direct request, it would be irresponsible to take control of a thing like this out of the author's hands.

Last edited on 22 Oct 2017 08:47 by Doctor Cimmerian Show more

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

Modern_Erasmus 22 Oct 2017 08:49

Yes, but I'd argue this was always a canon, just one that Troy didn't know about or remember when making the original hub. And Hornby already ceded his control over the project in the hub itself.

Staff action should be to respect author's wishes. Hornby clearly intended this to be the kind of collab project we later termed a canon, and the point at which staff action harmed that intent was when it wasn't listed as a canon, not a hypothetical listing now. The word canon itself is meaningless and arbitrary, its just a term we made up to describe a collab project with a list of traits. This expressly meets every intent and requirement of those traits, both in word and in spirit. Excluding it is more harmful to the author's intent than adding it would be.

Edit: it seems the major sticking point is that Hornby couldn't change his mind and exclude people if it were a canon, despite the fact that he already ceded the right for anyone to participate. Which raises the question of whether he would even have the right to do that in the first place considering its a right he ceded and the majority of Heimdall content was not created by him.

Last edited on 22 Oct 2017 09:23 by Modern_Erasmus Show more

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

TroyL 27 Oct 2017 09:05

O wilku mowa…

I'd argue this was always a canon, just one that Troy didn't know about or remember when making the original hub

It met the qualifications at the time (and the size of Heimdall, as well as Lombardi and Classical Revival) was actually used as a reference point for the 'size' a canon needed to be, approximately), but the author never contacted me to ask that it be added to the list. Given that he didn't want his works to be used by others in the original Canon Contest at one point, and the nature of the mail and apology mail I received over that issue, I assume that he also believes that it was a 'stand apart' canon of its own, even with his later recanting of the request. Given that, it would probably be safe to go ahead and add it, though there would need to be a rebuild to make the HUB page into a real one, with links and hookers and blackjack.

---

"WELL FOUNDATION. YOU MADE IT SO EASY. SO VERY VERY EASY." - dimensionpotato

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

Modern_Erasmus 27 Oct 2017 16:44

Thanks for the info Troy!

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

(account deleted) 22 Oct 2017 21:35

Based off the link posted in the discussion for Project Heimdal (here) it seems to me this was basically a Canon before the concept of a canon even came into existence due to the 2013 NYC.

It's important to remember that a "canon" has certain things that you must do

Such as? It has the necessary articles to become a canon, the necessary amount of authors, and, based off the fact that the most recent article with the tag was posted on September 22, 2016 (SCP-2669), there is at least some interest still left in the project.

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

RJB_R 22 Oct 2017 22:21

I've thought it ought to be a canon for a long time now, it really is basically doing everything a canon does today but from before those were a thing. I'd see if we can get in contact with Hornby about it but if we can't, I think it ought to still be assigned to that category unless we get specific refusal.

---

Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

AdminBright 24 Oct 2017 01:33

If we can't get contact with hornby, yeh, canon.

---

Admin, SCP Wiki

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

Modern_Erasmus 28 Oct 2017 14:19

Given the general consensus here, how about waiting until the end of November for a response from Hornby, and then adding it if no response is received by that date? I can take responsibility for updating the hub a bit as Troy suggested.

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

(account deleted) 28 Oct 2017 17:48

I won't mind waiting until November, but I'm gonna ask: to what extent are we editing the hub? I would prefer if the only thing added to the hub was a module that had all articles with the Heimdal tag on it, so we can respect the majority of Hornby's content within the hub.

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

Modern_Erasmus 29 Oct 2017 17:19

Don’t worry, that and removing references to the one deleted tale were all the edits I was planning on.

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

Modern_Erasmus 31 Oct 2017 19:49

Received the following PM:

“Afternoon Erasmus,

My apologies for not replying sooner. I haven't done much with the SCP wiki in several years now, and have fallen out of the habit of checking wikidot for messages more than once a month or so.

I'd be fine with Heimdall being classified as a canon. (My understanding here is that it would not substantively change the existing material tied to the collab; if it did, it probably wouldn't be a problem but I'd want to take a closer look at things.) If my memory serves, canons were just beginning to be a thing as I was becoming busy with life things outside the SCP wiki, and that as of then Heimdall hadn't met the threshold to be a canon. If it since has, and site staff are fine with it being binned there, I have no objections.

So, short version, since it sounds like this is as much an administrative issue as a creative one, go ahead and list Heimdall as a canon. Let me know if my understanding is faulty, or if there's anything else you need from me. I'm dealing with an IRL family emergency at the moment, but I'll try and keep an eye on wikidot through November until I've heard from you.

Best,
Hornby”

I sent back a PM explaining that it wouldn’t affect any current content and only remove his right of exclusion. Seems like the issue has been settled. Who would like to do the honors?

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

RJB_R 01 Nov 2017 02:50

I can list it, we should probably wait to hear back from Hornby that the exclusion thing won't be a sticking point so once that's done we can throw it up on the hub and top bar.

---

Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

Modern_Erasmus 03 Nov 2017 21:30

"Works for me. Other than what I line out in the Project Heimdall hub and Prologue being grandfathered-in as the immediate setup of the project, it was always intended to be opened up for community collaboration.

Thanks for asking me about setting it up as a canon before just doing it, though; I appreciate it. So, consider this a green light."

We're good. You're up Rog!

Re: Proposal: List Project Heimdall as a Canon

RJB_R 07 Nov 2017 21:29

Done. It is now listed from the top bar and the canon hub.

---

Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!