Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

Summary:

Potential Rule 0 violation

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Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

ManyMeats 27 Jun 2021 17:39

On 23 June, 2021 a screenshot was shared in the SCPD Discord server which contains text from the SCP Wiki Staff Chat server. Multiple members of the SCPD discord server have made a collective Rule 0 complaint against the contents therein, namely the last two lines of text which are said by wiki Moderator MalyceGraves. I have transcribed those lines to text for the purposes of record:

Malyce Graves: I have to disagree. I think it's a mixture of that and "nothing is ever good enough so why keep trying?"
Malyce Graves: I've seen very little recognition for the tremendous work accomplished and the movement towards the things "the community" is wanting, just more demands, more bitching, more bullying

The community member complainants cited the recent post about Rule 0 within staff spaces in making this report. It is my personal judgment that the spirit of the complaint is that the Rule 0 enforcement should be made with respect to the broader community, rather than only direct, 1-on-1, incidents. This post is to discuss and/or vote as to whether this constitutes a policy violation by a staff member.

If found to be a Rule 0 policy violation, this would be the user's first documented offense. Per this policy, the public logging of said violation and an informal warning would be the obligated action.

As MalyceGraves is a member of the Disciplinary team, they are not permitted to comment on or participate in this discussion unless by direct request.

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

LilyFlower 27 Jun 2021 20:34

For recordkeeping and because it's relevant, a complainant shared the following in SCPD, and asked me to post it here.

In my opinion, it is a violation of rule 0 because, in its vagueness as a rule, this comment from malyce is an example of “[being] a dick.” It’s a comment in a staff space, a space of power, saying the community members are bitching and bullying. A normal user saying something like this or this comment being in a side chat or whatever is rude and stupid but not necessarily a violation. Doing it in a position of power/influence in an influential space with that wording is, to me, being a “dick.” In a staff space with that dynamic I would think everyone could agree that someone saying “all [a user] does is bitch and bully” would be a violation of rule zero. Here it’s just directed to the entire group of people here rather than one person. And as a disc member, that is a dick move. That is why I believe it is a violation of rule zero. The person saying it, the people it is directed at, the power dynamic, the space, all come together to make it more than just a dumb comment

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~🌸~Flower Power~🌸~

Last edited on 27 Jun 2021 20:37 by LilyFlower Show more

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

LilyFlower 27 Jun 2021 19:59

As much as there's certainly better ways Malyce could have phrased this, I don't agree this is in violation of rule zero. There is harsh, and there's being wrong, and there's being a dick, and the first two don't make the third. We wouldn't be punishing any user for this and so my vote is for no action.

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~🌸~Flower Power~🌸~

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

TheMightyMcB 27 Jun 2021 20:10

Seconding Lily here. No user would face any disc action for these comments, nor should they.

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

DrBleep 27 Jun 2021 20:00

I'm honestly struggling to see how this violates rule 0. Is it harsh? Yes. Rulebreaking? Not really. It's not targeted, it's not adjucating or directly insulting anyone, it's describing actions, perhaps in a less than kind way, but I do not see the cross over into rule 0 territory that the spirit of the complaint implies.

It makes me more than a little wary that this was brought to disc and moved into a public thread like this. Voting for no action here.

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

Dexanote 27 Jun 2021 20:33

I fully agree with Lily, Bleep, and McB.

This isn't anything actionable and I almost think this thread should be turned to a Non-Disc one. This isn't something any user anywhere would be disciplined for at all.

EDIT: An addition to be clear - this was an unhelpful statement at BEST in said conversation and probably wasn't very necessary to add in, as it didn't further discussion in any capacity. I'd avoid this kind of stuff during major conversations in the future and implore the rest of our team does the same.

Last edited on 27 Jun 2021 21:11 by Dexanote Show more

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

ManyMeats 27 Jun 2021 20:44

I am making my post separately because I did not want to conflate anything I have to say with the presentation of the case.

While I agree that this is likely not something I would consider for action if said by a wiki user in the wild, the context of privilege and the domain in which it was said is something I believe is valuable to draw a line on as a 'governing body' for ethics and behavior. This complaint could have been made about a handful of things said in staff chat since the rules post referred to but, for whatever reasons, it had not been made until this incident. At some point we have to take our lumps.

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

Tuomey Tombstone 27 Jun 2021 21:07

This is just… general venting. I don't know how this could be considered a rule zero violation, I've had worse said to me, in a more targeted manner and more professional environment and given the same back with no issues.

EDIT: To be clear, I mean that this comment is clearly not targeted at anyone and is low intensity breaks no rules beyond "someone vented in staff chat" which is… not a rule, although arguably a little inappropriate in particular venues.

Having been present for the conversation preceding it - which can be accurately be seen in the screenshot as chaotic and confusing (two previous conversations collided and this conversation was about sorting them out) - is part of what gives me the context to say it was certainly venting rather than anything else.

It's certainly not a rule zero violation, in my opinion.

Last edited on 27 Jun 2021 22:01 by Tuomey Tombstone Show more

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

Jacob Conwell 27 Jun 2021 21:08

I can't foresee us ever having enacted Rule Zero for this exchange on a user before and don't think it applies here. I do not support disciplinary action in this case.

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

EstrellaYoshte 27 Jun 2021 21:13

Posting with permission from DrBleep

In isolation, MalyceGraves's comment would not be in violation of Rule 0, and I do understand their frustrations and needs to vent.

However, considering the staff-sanctioned space in which the comment was made, the position of privilege they hold and the ongoing user relations efforts, it elevates the unhelpful generalization to a level that directly feeds into the confrontational staff culture that all of us are trying to amend.

It's oft-said that Staff should be held to a higher standard that the regular users, and the same is true for the impacts of our words. I don't expect this to get more than a warning, but I do expect that we have a more thorough introspection on what standards we should hold ourselves to, more than just lip service.

Last edited on 27 Jun 2021 21:14 by EstrellaYoshte Show more

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

Vivarium 27 Jun 2021 21:44

I am not a member of the Disc Team, but I wanted to add my voice into the discussion.

My thoughts on this matter fall in line with Estrella. This situation may not be deserving of disciplinary action, but it is deserving of our attention. Members of staff who are in a position of power should be held to a higher standard, and statements like the ones that were made are not conducive to a constructive discussion, or a good representation of the standards we should strive for.

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

Dexanote 27 Jun 2021 22:44

So a point was raised that my post above doesn't have the context that I've made my decision with, and probably that the rest of people here have made their decisions with.

The particular lines in question were about 12 hours into a long, fervent discussion regarding staff and our relation to the site community, as well as a significant focus on our work with the Discord server SCPDeclassified. Said discussion ran fairly hot after about 5 hours, with high, HIGH stress levels and emotional commitment on the part of basically every present user.

Malyce's posts were in frustration and divorced from any of the rest of their other discussion. At the time it slipped by because it was probably ignored, or in frustration vaguely agreed with but let go because conversation was focused on the actual topics at hand. This wasn't *great* that said lines were dropped - but in the context of the sheer energy of the conversation it's understandable, and wasn't directed pointedly at a specific person, so it doesn't tag as especially malicious. Heat-of-the-moment venting.

Now, if that was posted divorced of any context, maybe in a brief conversation of about how well some contest was received, that'd be a different story. Negativity wouldnt be understandable or warranted then, and would probably raise multiple other flags of "what the hell was that for?". I'd probably be having a different conversation regarding my perspective of how this applies to Rule 0, in that case, as well.

However, that's not what went down. What this was was a singular expression of frustration after half a day, no exaggeration, of high-intensity staff discussions.

I will maintain that it isn't great in retrospect, but frankly, in the context, I cannot apply discipline here. Malyce is very involved in said discussions and their frustration was almost visible through the last four-ish hours of discussion.

I'll maintain also that I'll pointedly shove venting out of staff discussions and elsewhere, since staff discussions should be used exclusively to accomplish work and find solutions to problems. While we've been struggling to maintain focus, this is already an initiative we've been working on (majority only staff work in staff discussion spaces) so I'll maintain that it could have gone anywhere else.

This is why I will not be taking action, but I'm certain Malyce is very aware of this thread and I'm fairly sure it will be taken to heart.

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

Zyn 28 Jun 2021 05:32

We've seen more vehemence in posts in the mainsite Complaints Thread, and given the context noted in Dex's comment above, I don't support disciplinary action for this case.

That said, the language does feel harsher than necessary, and I can understand why the complaint was made.

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

Dexanote 27 Jun 2021 23:16

As no disciplinary action has been taken, and the above has been decided, I will propose now to move this to Non-Disciplinary Records. This will maintain our discussion, and allow us to review if ever necessary in the future, but reflect that nothing was yet found.

After a few non-Malyce Disc people agree I'll move the thread. Reply here with Yes or No.

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

ManyMeats 27 Jun 2021 23:43

Yes.

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

TheMightyMcB 28 Jun 2021 01:36

Yes

Re: Disciplinary - MalyceGraves

Zyn 28 Jun 2021 04:56

Yes.

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