User Gleemeyes popped in and got involved in several conversations. Eventually it got around to gender identity and pronouns. Log follows:
14:05 <Gleemeyes> im lucky because of where i was born
14:05 <Calibri_Bold> "We live in a society."
14:05 <Gleemeyes> and what parents i have
14:05 i would say
14:05 <Snow_> Fact Cal
14:05 <PlaguePJP> plaguepjp .lc
14:05 <•Secretary_Helen> PlaguePJP: SCP-5596 (Written A few seconds ago By: PlaguePJP) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-5596
14:05 PlaguePJP: The Power Of Love (Written A few seconds ago By: Calibri Bold) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/the-power-of-love
14:05 PlaguePJP: Face In The Dollhouse (Written 29 minutes ago By: UraniumEmpire) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/face-in-the-dollhouse
14:06 <Gleemeyes> but opinions are opinions!
14:06 <Calibri_Bold> Indeed.
14:06 <Calibri_Bold> But some opinions are bad.
14:06 <grigorikarpin> I wasn’t saying opinions, but facts :)
14:06 <Calibri_Bold> Like thinking the Gravity Suit is a good vehicle.
14:06 <Gleemeyes> i feel like its bad to make it harder for anything
14:07 but
14:07 thats maybe besides me
14:07 <grigorikarpin> Also… I have a story about a conservative douchebag getting his comeuppance
14:07 SCP-3809
14:07 <•Secretary_Helen> grigorikarpin: SCP-3809: Love in the Time of Algorithms (Rating: +52. Written 1 day ago By: Grigori Karpin) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-3809
14:07 <BlueJones> Calibri_Bold: Quick question: would you have Funny Valentine as your president?
14:07 <Gleemeyes> and i dont feel like its necessarily becoming harder for non male non whites
14:07 <Snow_> I'm honestly worried that I won't really be recognized in the states as female/enby evetually
14:07 <Calibri_Bold> BlueJones: That's actually an interesting question.
14:07 <grigorikarpin> Gleemeyes: you’re wrong
14:07 <Snow_> Gleemeyes: See the BLM movment
14:08 <Gleemeyes> thats weird
14:08 <Snow_> It is getting worse and more public too
14:08 <Gleemeyes> i would say the blm is helping
14:08 <Calibri_Bold> BlueJones: There's no doubt that Valentine was a bad guy, but he also legitimately had the best interests of the nation at heart.
14:08 <Snow_> It is
14:08 <WarFang> as someone who’s disabled, mentally ill and non gender conforming, navigating my life is a fucking chore and i honestly don’t wanna hear someone tell me it’s not
14:08 <Gleemeyes> so wouldnt that mean its getting better?
14:08 <Snow_> Not really
14:08 <Gleemeyes> weird
14:08 <Snow_> No one in power is doing any thing of consequence
14:09 <Gleemeyes> i guess i just dont understand that
14:09 <Snow_> Also what War said
14:09 <Gleemeyes> also i have never understood non gender confirming
14:09 conforming*
14:09 what exactly is that
14:09 <•Dr_Kens> Also speaking as a PoC, it's a system that sucks for anyone non-white. We have a saying in the Asian community that's "learning to play the game"
14:09 Because it's rigged against us inherently
14:09 <grigorikarpin> ^
14:09 <Snow_> Gleemeyes: I'm not male
14:09 I'm not female
14:09 <•Dr_Kens> This extends out to disabled, LGBTA+…
14:10 It may not be explict.
14:10 like
14:10 <•taylor_itkin> Gleemeyes: the BLM movement is a response to an enormous problem that is only worsened for the victimized once they rise up in protest
14:10 <Gleemeyes> so what are you?
14:10 <Snow_> Enby/agender
14:10 <Gleemeyes> yes i get that
14:10 <Snow_> And a fucking mess
14:10 <Gleemeyes> but what is that
14:10 <WarFang> i call myself male adjacent but my interpretation of my own gender is fuckin Fake
14:10 <Gleemeyes> like i get you have a term
14:10 <Gleemeyes> but what exactly is that
14:10 <Snow_> That is a scale between Male and Female
14:10 <BlueJones> Calibri_Bold: I mean he wasn't really a bad guy, he just wanted what was best for the nation and only appears evil cause he was after the holy corpse and killed people for the needs of the many
14:10 <WarFang> the term’s explanation is different for everyone
14:10 <•taylor_itkin> What is male or female
14:11 <Snow_> It depends on the person
14:11 <•taylor_itkin> That’s like asking someone to define what normal is
14:11 <Gleemeyes> male or female is a biological description
14:11 based on what sex you are
14:11 which i believe is the same thing
14:11 <•taylor_itkin> Sex and gender are separate
14:11 <WarFang> gender as a concept to me is just bizarre, that people think biology determines it
14:11 <•taylor_itkin> Like scientifically proven to be separate
14:11 <Snow_> ^
14:11 <Gleemeyes> how exactly
14:11 ?
14:11 <•stormfallen> Sex isn't a binary system either; there's plenty of intersex people
14:11 <Gleemeyes> im stupid i guess
14:12 <•taylor_itkin> Gleemeyes: ok what I’m about to say is going to come off as aggressive but please know it is not meant to
14:12 <WarFang> gender is in the brain
14:12 <•taylor_itkin> I am genuinely trying a thought exercise
14:12 It’s just that through typing it out I fear it’s going to sound aggressive
14:12 <Gleemeyes> im genuinely asking you to explain
14:12 <•taylor_itkin> Ok?
14:12 <Gleemeyes> i dont see a problem here
14:12 <•taylor_itkin> So. I’m 20 years old and in between my legs I posses male genitalia. I do not identify as male. I identify as non-binary.
14:12 <Gleemeyes> yes, that i get
14:13 <•taylor_itkin> Would you argue that just because physically I possess male parts I am then male?
14:13 <Gleemeyes> but how do you explain non binary
14:13 yes
14:13 i would
14:13 argu that
14:13 argue that
14:13 <•taylor_itkin> Alright
14:13 <Snow_> .def non-binary
14:13 <•Secretary_Helen> Snow_: https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-non-binary-people-how-to-be-respectful-and-supportive - Understanding Non-Binary People: How to Be Respectful and …: Oct 5, 2018 … Non-Binary Defined. Most people – including most transgender people – are either male or female. But some people don't neatly fit into the …
14:13 <•taylor_itkin> Would you argue that I’m a *man* or a *boy*
14:13 <Gleemeyes> as i was tought that
14:13 <•taylor_itkin> Or simply male
14:13 <Gleemeyes> uhh that would be based on age no?
14:13 <WarFang> so were we but most of us don’t believe it
14:13 <Gleemeyes> so male?
14:13 <•taylor_itkin> Either
14:14 Man or boy idc what age difference it makes
14:14 Like
14:14 <Gleemeyes> and then based on whether you are 18 or older
14:14 <•taylor_itkin> Just
14:14 Ok
14:14 I’m 20
14:14 Would you identify me as a man
14:14 <Gleemeyes> so by terms a man
14:14 yes
14:14 <•taylor_itkin> Alright
14:14 What if I were to tell you that being referred to as a man made me extremely uncomfortable
14:14 <Gleemeyes> i would respect that
14:14 <•taylor_itkin> Ok
14:14 <Gleemeyes> and i would ask how else to go about it
14:14 <•taylor_itkin> That’s really kind of the core of it for a lot of people
14:15 <Gleemeyes> however, if i make a mistake
14:15 i would also like you to not get angry?
14:15 i suppose
14:15 <•taylor_itkin> So like
14:15 No one is going to get angry at you for slipping up
14:15 What people will get angry about
14:15 Is denial of identity
14:15 <Gleemeyes> and i guess its just that i dont have these feelings or understandings or something
14:15 <•taylor_itkin> Saying “I was taught this so your identity is wrong and bad” is what makes people angry
14:15 <Gleemeyes> but if you want me to use for example they
14:15 <•taylor_itkin> I’m not saying you’re saying that
14:15 <Gleemeyes> then sure
14:16 however the whole xer stuff is a bit much
14:16 imo
14:16 <•taylor_itkin> Well are you going to refuse to use those as pronouns if someone asks you to?
14:16 <grigorikarpin> Lemme ask you something, what impact does it have on you to refer to someone as they ask to be referred to?
14:16 <Snow_> um
14:16 <•taylor_itkin> Hey guys let me handle this as an op plz
14:17 <Snow_> I should step out for rn. Can do
14:18 <•taylor_itkin> Gleemeyes: let me kind of frame this in a different way I guess
14:18 so like
14:18 I don't hate Christian people
14:18 What I do hate is people who use being Christian as a way to tell me how to live my life
14:18 as a way to force their religious beliefs on me
14:18 But I'd never go around telling them that their ideas of God are idiotic and dumb and invalid
14:18 <Gleemeyes> oh yeah
14:18 sure
14:18 <•taylor_itkin> Even though I personally don't really believe in God.
14:18 <Gleemeyes> see the thing is
14:18 you are
14:18 technically
14:19 forcing something upon me
14:19 <•taylor_itkin> No, see, let me finish.
14:19 War, I got this.
14:19 Let me finish, though.
14:19 <WarFang> well i am /incredibly/ uncomfortable bc of the energy in this channel today
14:19 ← WarFang left (thgil.eht.fo.gniyd.eht.tsniaga.egar.egar|060042diu#thgil.eht.fo.gniyd.eht.tsniaga.egar.egar|060042diu)
14:19 <•taylor_itkin> I'm not forcing anything on you. No one is asking you to become trans, no one is asking you to be a new gender, no one is asking you to wave a pride flag.
14:20 What *is* being asked of you is to give other people basic respect and treat them as though they are people and not things you get to dictate the lives and identities of.
14:20 <•MalyceGraves> 👁️
14:21 <Gleemeyes> sure
14:21 <•taylor_itkin> Bottom line: I'm not here to really debate the morality of gender with you. Our community has rules, and if you feel oppressed by needing to follow them and respect people's identities, you are free to not be here. I'm not shooing you away, but the rules are not negotiable.
14:21 <Gleemeyes> i will treat you with respect
14:21 <•taylor_itkin> Then we're done with this conversation.
14:22 <Gleemeyes> however i will not call you things that do not exist in a dictionary
14:22 ← BlueJones left (91.etis.fo.tseirphceT|932653diu#91.etis.fo.tseirphceT|932653diu)
14:22 <•taylor_itkin> Do you wanna hand me the shovel or do you want to keep digging
14:22 Because buddy I'm really trying to give you every benefit of every doubt here
14:23 <Gleemeyes> ill think about it
14:24 i would say you should too
14:24 but im assuming youve done that enough
14:24 though interesting conversation
14:24 thanks for your insight
14:26 <•MalyceGraves> This topic has gone on long enough. Gleemeyes You can follow our rules or you can leave. Simple as that.
14:26 This is your only warning.
14:27 <Sirslash47> wb worldeva
14:27 Monoplane bomber wat
14:27 — worldeva peeks in
14:27 <Gleemeyes> wait what did i do
14:27 i legit closed it?
14:27 <worldeva> Elo Sirslash47
14:27 <Calibri_Bold> .l
14:27 <•Secretary_Helen> Calibri_Bold: SCP-5596: A Really Shitty Cupid (Written A few seconds ago By: PlaguePJP) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-5596
14:27 Calibri_Bold: The Power Of Love (Written A few seconds ago By: Calibri Bold) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/the-power-of-love
14:27 •MalyceGraves banned *!ln.letasrev.citats.d6hqv5-PCS|egnuoleht#ln.letasrev.citats.d6hqv5-PCS|egnuoleht (+b)
14:27 <•Secretary_Helen> Calibri_Bold: Face In The Dollhouse (Written 50 minutes ago By: UraniumEmpire) - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/face-in-the-dollhouse
14:27 ← Gleemeyes (ln.letasrev.citats.d6hqv5-PCS|egnuoleht#ln.letasrev.citats.d6hqv5-PCS|egnuoleht) was kicked by •MalyceGraves: 1 week. You may appeal in #site17
I initially warned them, but upon seeing the blatant transphobia in the backscroll, I decided to ban for one week.
The way this was transmitted was improper, and I take responsibility for not adequately consulting with my colleagues. Upon discussion, it was decided that a ban was appropriate, so was enacted for 1 week.
User appealed, heard by ChaoSera:
14:28 <Gleemeyes> okay
14:28 then
14:29 <•taylor_itkin> hi one moment
14:29 <Gleemeyes> sure
14:29 <•taylor_itkin> we're already discussing it
14:30 <Gleemeyes> i suppose i should have phrased something differently?
14:30 "however i will not call you things that do not exist in a dictionary" this should be i am hesitant to. thats incorrect wording by me
14:30 i apologize for that i guess
14:31 <•taylor_itkin> One sec
14:31 we're not ignoring you, I promise
14:31 <Gleemeyes> i know
14:36 <•ChaoSera> Gleemeyes: So here's the situation. We are discussing the ban since there is some disagreement over how and when specifically it happened. There is not, however, disagreement over that sentence being banworthy. Outright refusing to use somebody's preferred pronouns on the flimsy justification of them not being in the dictionary is extremely insensitive, inapropriate as well as just plain against our rules. That being said, I'll give you this
14:36 opportunity to explain what exactly you meant and why you think that is an appropriate thing to say
14:36 <Gleemeyes> well like i said
14:36 above
14:36 the wording was incorrect
14:37 im not exactly refusing
14:37 <•ChaoSera> I don't see how the new wording makes it better by any significant degree
14:37 <Gleemeyes> im having a hard time with it since its uhh a hard concept to grasp
14:37 <•ChaoSera> Why is grammar more important than somebody's identity?
14:37 <Gleemeyes> oh no thats not the thing
14:37 nor am i denying their identity
14:38 it is just difficult
14:38 <•ChaoSera> It's okay to struggle with the concept, I can understand that. But that doesn't make it okay not to use somebody's correct pronouns
14:38 <Gleemeyes> to figure out what to use
14:38 and if mistakes
14:38 that people do infact
14:38 get quite angry
14:39 it is uhh how do i put this
14:39 i do not understand feeling not male or female? i suppose
14:39 therefore i do not see the concept
14:40 i am not denying someones existence? i just do not understand
14:40 <•ChaoSera> It's not an issue not to understand as long as you respect it. But what you said was very far from respecting it
14:40 <Gleemeyes> therefore it would be hard to change something so grounded and static for me
14:40 as 2 genders
14:40 i think thats debatable
14:41 but i suppose thats not my thing to debate
14:41 <•ChaoSera> I'm sorry, but it being hard is not a sufficient reason to not make the effort
14:41 <Gleemeyes> its not the effort
14:41 see i dont think you understand what i mean
14:41 which is that
14:41 i for one
14:41 do not know what pronouns exist
14:41 and two how to integrate those into my life
14:42 i wont refute someones idea
14:42 <•ChaoSera> You can just ask somebody what pronouns they use if the situation comes up or if you're corrected
14:42 <Gleemeyes> i just dont feel like i need to participate in something so arbitrary as a language form?
14:42 yes
14:42 and i would?
14:42 but i would just call them by their name
14:43 its easier that way
14:43 <Gleemeyes> if they tell me they arent male or female
14:43 then i will respect taht
14:44 that doesnt mean i need to refer to them as (insert thing here)
14:44 <•ChaoSera> Yes you do
14:44 <Gleemeyes> although i might be wrong in that
14:44 does it?
14:44 <•ChaoSera> Yes.
14:44 <Gleemeyes> so i have to memorize
14:44 lots of words
14:44 match them to each person
14:44 for a specific small group
14:45 then i have a question. How do i recognize the difference?
14:45 <•ChaoSera> If you want to put it that way, yes. These are our rules. You're not expected to not know everybody's pronouns off the top of your head. You can ask someone if you're unsure, or use the pronouns bot, or avoid using pronouns in the first place. But you're not allowed to ignore somebody's pronouns because it's inconvenient for you
14:45 The difference between what?
14:46 <Gleemeyes> like because i thought it was they them at first
14:46 which i do use
14:46 but its not
14:46 and thats where i lose it
14:47 <•ChaoSera> I don't see what's so complicated about that
14:47 You were corrected, now you know the correct ones to use, just use those from now on
14:47 <Gleemeyes> what do you mean? wouldnt not using pronouns be the same as ignoring ones pronouns?
14:47 i dont know the correct ones actually
14:47 no one has told me
14:47 <•ChaoSera> Then ask
14:47 It's not that hard
14:47 <Gleemeyes> infact i got snap banned
14:47 you didnt leave me with a lot of room for that
14:48 did you
14:48 also that wasnt the point of the discussion
14:48 <•ChaoSera> You got banned for saying you won't use words as pronouns that aren't in the dictionary
14:48 <Gleemeyes> it was to explain something
14:48 <Gleemeyes> and i said i worded that wrong
14:48 <Gleemeyes> which i apologized for?
14:48 i dont
14:48 see the problem here
14:49 explain something to me
14:49 which i didnt understand
14:49 and i told them my current standpoint
14:49 which can be subject to change
14:49 <Gleemeyes> which you should be well aware of
14:49 <•ChaoSera> Look dude, I'm running out of patience here. I have repeatedly explained what the issue is. You won't get in trouble by messing up somebody's pronouns by accident but we will not tolerate you not using the correct one's after you've been told. These are our rules and we won't make an exception on them.
14:50 <Gleemeyes> i didnt disagree on that
14:50 <Gleemeyes> where did i say i did
14:50 <Gleemeyes> i said i would
14:50 <•Lily> Memorising words to describe every person is sometjing you do every single dat
14:50 <Gleemeyes> im saying its hard for me to recognize
14:50 and i wanted help with that
14:50 <•Lily> It's no different from remembering someone's name
14:50 <Gleemeyes> thats why we had the discussion?
14:50 yes so ill use their name
14:50 i dont see the problem
14:51 <Gleemeyes> infact remembering someones name can actually be difficult
14:51 <•Lily> It really isn't
14:51 <•ChaoSera> That's not the point
14:51 <Gleemeyes> thats why we have the names next to the text
14:52 among things
14:52 <•ChaoSera> And at this point I really have to assume you're deliberately trying to be obtuse after repeated explanations
14:52 <Gleemeyes> no
14:52 im not
14:52 i apologized
14:52 i said i would use them
14:52 i said that its a learning process
14:52 and i said that until the time i grasp the concept fully
14:52 <•Lily> Gleemeyes: how old are you
14:52 <Gleemeyes> i will use names
14:53 ?
14:53 <•Lily> Gleemeyes: it's a simple question
14:54 <Gleemeyes> also interesting dude assumption i wont go into it
14:54 <Gleemeyes> but what question
14:54 ?
14:54 <•Lily> How old are you
14:54 <Gleemeyes> why
14:54 is that important
14:54 i fail to see the importance of that
14:54 <•Lily> Because I'm staff and don't think you seem old enough to be here
14:54 So answer
14:54 <Gleemeyes> im 18 for that matter
14:55 turned 18 2 months ago
14:55 Because I'm staff and don't think you seem old enough to be here weird aggressive opinion
14:55 <•ChaoSera> Ok so let me try to bring this to some kind of end. Do you understand what you did wrong?
14:56 <Gleemeyes> i think that is apparent from me apologizing
14:56 so yes
14:56 <•ChaoSera> Cool. Just to make sure, please explain to me, in your own words, what it is you did wrong
14:57 <Gleemeyes> i said something unintentionally disrespectful
14:57 ?
14:58 that could have possibly been painful for the other person
14:58 which it happened to be
14:58 which i apologized for
14:58 which i was planning on doing
14:58 <•ChaoSera> And do you understand that you can not deliberately use the wrong pronouns for somebody else in the chat?
14:58 <Gleemeyes> b4 i got snap banned
14:58 i didnt do that
14:58 <•ChaoSera> I know
14:58 It's more of a preventative question
14:58 <Gleemeyes> i wasnt planning on doing that
14:59 <•ChaoSera> Good. I'm commuting your ban from one week down to 24 hours. You will be welcome back tomorrow.
15:03 <•ChaoSera> Gleemeyes: Until your ban is over tomorrow I'll have to ask you to leave 17
15:04 ⇐ Gleemeyes quit (ln.letasrev.citats.d6hqv5-PCS|egnuoleht#ln.letasrev.citats.d6hqv5-PCS|egnuoleht) The Lounge - By https://thelounge.chat
Upon appeal, the ban was commuted to 24h.
Chatstaff have concluded that they may return, but more transphobia will result in a permanent ban.
